Will our geography always be our most difficult opponent?

[Dave Deacon]

Farnham Town at Step 5 level are going great guns in their Combined Counties Premier South Division this season, still with a 100% record after 24 league games.

They are doing great things off the pitch as well as on it and watching one of their latest videos you get a great feel of how the club has stepped up their game in recent times. It’s worth a watch. Click this link - it’s only 20 minutes long and well worth a watch.

They’re the same level as our Western League Premier sides but watching the video and the things they’ve done around the ground, they seem a really forward thinking club or at least they have a couple guys that appear to be.

Can or will any of our clubs ever be able to emulate their current forward thinking or at the end of the day are we held back simply down to geographical and economic reasons?

[Ian Pethick]

6 hours ago, Dave Deacon said:

Farnham Town at Step 5 level are going great guns in their Combined Counties Premier South Division this season, still with a 100% record after 24 league games.

They are doing great things off the pitch as well as on it and watching one of their latest videos you get a great feel of how the club has stepped up their game in recent times. It’s worth a watch. Click this link - it’s only 20 minutes long and well worth a watch.

They’re the same level as our Western League Premier sides but watching the video and the things they’ve done around the ground, they seem a really forward thinking club or at least they have a couple guys that appear to be.

Can or will any of our clubs ever be able to emulate their current forward thinking or at the end of the day are we held back simply down to geographical and economic reasons?

In short, "no". Cornish clubs will never be able to compete financially or geographically with those "up the line." Farnham are blowing everybody away in their step 5 league, making it 24 straight wins from 24 games over the weekend (Parkway would probably have done similar in the Western League of 2020/21 if the season hadn't been abandoned through the pandemic). Large crowds, and a large budget, means that they are pulling in players from higher steps to play at this level. Mark Waters from step 3, Isthmian Prem, Kingstonian was the latest to join last week. Of course, this was something that teams as far back as Falmouth Town were able to do in Cornwall for many seasons. Sooner or later though the money runs out, and things crash back to reality again (ask any Truro City fan about this).

What is interesting though is the way they enagage and promote themselves with in the greater community and through social media, which is something Cornish clubs could take things from. Under 16's in for nothing is something I have long advocated as worth trying, Launceston did something similar a few months back and doubled their usual attendance. Sounds like they more than made up for the loss of gate revenue through extra food and drink sales (not to mention building interest). Whether you call it forward thinking or innovation, can it hurt just to try different things to get people through the gates? On the pitch in Cornwall at the moment, you could argue that it's a golden era in terms of clubs position in the national pyramid. Yet for many clubs, attendances and interest is bafflingly low. Helston, for example, are top their league, going for a cup double and look well placed for promotion, yet more people will stand in a Helston pub watching the Premier League in a pub than turning up at Kellaway Park. Lack of advertising, marketing or just not interested?

Regarding Farnham,  It does help though that they have as their major backer a man who is a multi millionaire via his digital marketing agency (so promotion is his game), and that they are based in one of the UK's most affluent towns with a population of 39k. It will be interesting to see how the Farnham story plays out when, as they inevitably rise through the pyramid, they come up against sides with similar or even greater budgets. It is a great media story for the moment, but we have seen plenty of these non league "boom" stories over the years. It's great that the place is buzzing and creating interest and that the locals are right behind it, but i'll reserve judgement for the time being

[Devonian]

Money Money Money

At the moment Farnham have it and with many potential  players living within easy commute of their ground and them being able to offer high wage as a result of their backing, success is almost inevitable.

The questions are always the same in these situations

1) what happens when the current backer is unable to continue support or just gets bored. Does the club then have future commitments - eg player contracts - it then can’t fund

2) what is the accounting basis on which financial backing is being injected. If it’s loans not shares, would the only way the club could repay those loans be selling the ground (perhaps to its current backer). Pretty valuable land in the South East if somehow the land could be converted to housing.

No reason to believe this is what is happening in Farnham’s case but those are the questions I would ask. 

[Gary Hocking]

1 hour ago, Ian Pethick said:

In short, "no". Cornish clubs will never be able to compete financially or geographically with those "up the line." Farnham are blowing everybody away in their step 5 league, making it 24 straight wins from 24 games over the weekend (Parkway would probably have done similar in the Western League of 2020/21 if the season hadn't been abandoned through the pandemic). Large crowds, and a large budget, means that they are pulling in players from higher steps to play at this level. Mark Waters from step 3, Isthmian Prem, Kingstonian was the latest to join last week. Of course, this was something that teams as far back as Falmouth Town were able to do in Cornwall for many seasons. Sooner or later though the money runs out, and things crash back to reality again (ask any Truro City fan about this).

What is interesting though is the way they enagage and promote themselves with in the greater community and through social media, which is something Cornish clubs could take things from. Under 16's in for nothing is something I have long advocated as worth trying, Launceston did something similar a few months back and doubled their usual attendance. Sounds like they more than made up for the loss of gate revenue through extra food and drink sales (not to mention building interest). Whether you call it forward thinking or innovation, can it hurt just to try different things to get people through the gates? On the pitch in Cornwall at the moment, you could argue that it's a golden era in terms of clubs position in the national pyramid. Yet for many clubs, attendances and interest is bafflingly low. Helston, for example, are top their league, going for a cup double and look well placed for promotion, yet more people will stand in a Helston pub watching the Premier League in a pub than turning up at Kellaway Park. Lack of advertising, marketing or just not interested?

Regarding Farnham,  It does help though that they have as their major backer a man who is a multi millionaire via his digital marketing agency (so promotion is his game), and that they are based in one of the UK's most affluent towns with a population of 39k. It will be interesting to see how the Farnham story plays out when, as they inevitably rise through the pyramid, they come up against sides with similar or even greater budgets. It is a great media story for the moment, but we have seen plenty of these non league "boom" stories over the years. It's great that the place is buzzing and creating interest and that the locals are right behind it, but i'll reserve judgement for the time being

U16s get free entry at Trungle Parc 👍

[Yourhavingalaugh]

Definitely worth a watch. If you can put their financial advantage and current on field success to one side, their Director talks a lot of sense, basically ‘football is a business in the entertainment industry’ and it’s about attracting people through the turnstiles who spend money, enjoy themselves, and keep coming back.

Both on and off field success should go hand in hand, regardless of where you’re geographically located, and that’s your level. Success should be organic and not forced, as maintaining it becomes more or less impossible, and it usually ends in tears. PS - I wonder how many Cornish clubs carryout survey’s with their supporter’s about their match day experience ? I would love see the responses.

[St Darren]

Look at the catchment area that other clubs have   Especially those in the south east.  You don’t need to pay the expenses that players in the south west of England request. 
 

What teams are sustainable in Cornwall?  Truro? Absolutely no chance, Mousehole, possibly as they have the campsite there that funds a lot. But will that be sustainable if they go up again?  Helston? Reliant on the finances of one man. Falmouth?  Sustainable at their current level but will it be if they go higher?

[le boss]

4 hours ago, Ian Pethick said:

In short, "no". Cornish clubs will never be able to compete financially or geographically with those "up the line." Farnham are blowing everybody away in their step 5 league, making it 24 straight wins from 24 games over the weekend (Parkway would probably have done similar in the Western League of 2020/21 if the season hadn't been abandoned through the pandemic). Large crowds, and a large budget, means that they are pulling in players from higher steps to play at this level. Mark Waters from step 3, Isthmian Prem, Kingstonian was the latest to join last week. Of course, this was something that teams as far back as Falmouth Town were able to do in Cornwall for many seasons. Sooner or later though the money runs out, and things crash back to reality again (ask any Truro City fan about this).

What is interesting though is the way they enagage and promote themselves with in the greater community and through social media, which is something Cornish clubs could take things from. Under 16's in for nothing is something I have long advocated as worth trying, Launceston did something similar a few months back and doubled their usual attendance. Sounds like they more than made up for the loss of gate revenue through extra food and drink sales (not to mention building interest). Whether you call it forward thinking or innovation, can it hurt just to try different things to get people through the gates? On the pitch in Cornwall at the moment, you could argue that it's a golden era in terms of clubs position in the national pyramid. Yet for many clubs, attendances and interest is bafflingly low. Helston, for example, are top their league, going for a cup double and look well placed for promotion, yet more people will stand in a Helston pub watching the Premier League in a pub than turning up at Kellaway Park. Lack of advertising, marketing or just not interested?

Regarding Farnham,  It does help though that they have as their major backer a man who is a multi millionaire via his digital marketing agency (so promotion is his game), and that they are based in one of the UK's most affluent towns with a population of 39k. It will be interesting to see how the Farnham story plays out when, as they inevitably rise through the pyramid, they come up against sides with similar or even greater budgets. It is a great media story for the moment, but we have seen plenty of these non league "boom" stories over the years. It's great that the place is buzzing and creating interest and that the locals are right behind it, but i'll reserve judgement for the time being

A few interesting points but clubs have been met with derision because they video their matches or made donations to the local food bank which was then copied by others, so there has been attempts to engage with the community. Crowds is a strange one. Numbers will increase whilst a team is riding the crest of a wave but I’m sure many can remember it was not so long ago the very same clubs were also playing in front of one man and his dog. As for Helston, crowds have historically always been low, maybe due to the long-time disconnection between the adult and youth teams which has now been rectified. The club has tried initiatives to entice the public often to no avail. Maybe you could get answers from elsewhere. I’m sure somebody will cite no local players but if they’re not good enough then it would be wrong to pick them just because of their postcode. Hopefully youth development will redress this too. 

[St Darren]

12 minutes ago, le boss said:

A few interesting points but clubs have been met with derision because they video their matches or made donations to the local food bank which was then copied by others, so there has been attempts to engage with the community. Crowds is a strange one. Numbers will increase whilst a team is riding the crest of a wave but I’m sure many can remember it was not so long ago the very same clubs were also playing in front of one man and his dog. As for Helston, crowds have historically always been low, maybe due to the long-time disconnection between the adult and youth teams which has now been rectified. The club has tried initiatives to entice the public often to no avail. Maybe you could get answers from elsewhere. I’m sure somebody will cite no local players but if they’re not good enough then it would be wrong to pick them just because of their postcode. Hopefully youth development will redress this too. 

Where do you think Helston sustainable level is?

[le boss]

16 minutes ago, St Darren said:

Where do you think Helston sustainable level is?

Don’t think they can be far away from their limit - hopefully there will be players who are still ambitious to play at a higher standard which may offset some of the money needed. It’s always been evident that clubs from this part of the world will suffer through geography- even Argyle suffer. Truro are delusional if they think they will get much higher. 

[sportsman10]

I think Taunton are an example. And possibly parkway of clubs probably at the limit of where they can go .  It takes a massive amount of cash input ground upgrade to even complete around the bottom of table. And both clubs have had massive crowds that help. 
I can only think Falmouth as the only one that could do a Taunton and go to that level 

I don’t see it happening at any other Cornish club. (Truro not in the conversation as they are almost a welsh team if they play any further away ) 

[The Town Man]

Good documentary that.  Farnham are in the enviable position of having a marketing expert in charge of the club and he seems to be bringing all his experience to the table to lift them above the ordinary. As said by others, good geography, heavily populated affluent area. All positives.

See some parallels with Falmouth regarding having someone with energy and foresight to rally the Troops (a certain General!) but also a good committee and management which have been admitting U-16s for free for years as well as forging strong links with local youth football clubs (and having days where parents of these players also get complimentary tickets).

The fortunate thing is that the excellent match day experience at Falmouth then makes most of the people want to come back for more.  Definitely the nearest thing to league football in Cornwall.

The down side for Cornish teams may be the lack of sufficient quality players to be able to populate more than a couple of teams at higher levels.  Putting Truro aside, it may be a race between Mousehole, Helston and Falmouth to become the best side and hence attract the best players.

My money is on Falmouth long-term as the model seems more sustainable given the crowd sizes, but I may be a little biased........

[St Darren]

7 hours ago, le boss said:

Don’t think they can be far away from their limit - hopefully there will be players who are still ambitious to play at a higher standard which may offset some of the money needed. It’s always been evident that clubs from this part of the world will suffer through geography- even Argyle suffer. Truro are delusional if they think they will get much higher. 

What if Mr Massey wasn’t involved and therefore the club didn’t have his money?

[le boss]

47 minutes ago, St Darren said:

What if Mr Massey wasn’t involved and therefore the club didn’t have his money?

I guess we’ll never know but every club has a money man whether it’s commonly known or not. 

6 hours ago, The Town Man said:

Good documentary that.  Farnham are in the enviable position of having a marketing expert in charge of the club and he seems to be bringing all his experience to the table to lift them above the ordinary. As said by others, good geography, heavily populated affluent area. All positives.

See some parallels with Falmouth regarding having someone with energy and foresight to rally the Troops (a certain General!) but also a good committee and management which have been admitting U-16s for free for years as well as forging strong links with local youth football clubs (and having days where parents of these players also get complimentary tickets).

The fortunate thing is that the excellent match day experience at Falmouth then makes most of the people want to come back for more.  Definitely the nearest thing to league football in Cornwall.

The down side for Cornish teams may be the lack of sufficient quality players to be able to populate more than a couple of teams at higher levels.  Putting Truro aside, it may be a race between Mousehole, Helston and Falmouth to become the best side and hence attract the best players.

My money is on Falmouth long-term as the model seems more sustainable given the crowd sizes, but I may be a little biased........

Just a little lol. Think the “race” is currently being won by Mousehole with their academy or whatever. Helston must have one of the biggest youth set ups in the county and only time will tell if it bears fruit although I suspect that most of the youth will lose interest in football and do other things because football is no longer seen as the be all and end all like yesteryear. Falmouth have the crowds at the moment but they did once before and it all disappeared so I guess they hope that doesn’t happen again. 

[St Darren]

2 hours ago, le boss said:

I guess we’ll never know but every club has a money man whether it’s commonly known or not. 

Just a little lol. Think the “race” is currently being won by Mousehole with their academy or whatever. Helston must have one of the biggest youth set ups in the county and only time will tell if it bears fruit although I suspect that most of the youth will lose interest in football and do other things because football is no longer seen as the be all and end all like yesteryear. Falmouth have the crowds at the moment but they did once before and it all disappeared so I guess they hope that doesn’t happen again. 

It’s not about. anyone else. I was asking about Helston.
 

Without Mr Masseys money id imagine a sustainable level for the club would be peninsula level football

You’re spot on about the youth, they are not the future of a football club, they’re the future of football but not a club as the majority will go elsewhere and possibly come back when they’re older. 
 

The youth provides a facility for the local community which is fantastic. And what Helston have is great. 

[le boss]

Having seen the standard of Peninsula football I would hope the club would aspire to a little bit higher. 
I guess you are fully informed of what financial muscle Helston have at their disposal or are you just like all the other that 2+2=5? Again, we shall never really know🤔🤔🤔

[St Darren]

56 minutes ago, le boss said:

Having seen the standard of Peninsula football I would hope the club would aspire to a little bit higher. 
I guess you are fully informed of what financial muscle Helston have at their disposal or are you just like all the other that 2+2=5? Again, we shall never really know🤔🤔🤔

I’m going on where Helston were before Mr Massey came in!

[Town Fan]

It's not just down to geography, sadly, money plays a big part as well.  When a club's financial situation changes, no matter what the reason, things can and probably will go horribly wrong.  The most high profile example of this is Rushden & Diamonds, who reached the Football League.  They had a magnificent stadium at Nene Park with a capacity of around 6,400 (over 4,500 seated), but as this video shows (it's a heart breaking watch), when it goes wrong, the results can be spectacular:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-northamptonshire-39337724

I don't think any of us would like to see this happen to our club, or anyone else's.  I certainly wish Farnham Town the best of luck in their quest, they certainly seem to think that Step 3 is their limit.  Evidence from other clubs would suggest that might be sensible.  The next steps (1 & 2) are huge and clubs at that level must be spending eye watering amounts of money to stay there.  Recently we've read about problems at Taunton Town, Torquay United and clubs further afield, such as Nuneaton Borough, all of whom don't really have geographic issues and drew decent crowds. 

On a positive note, Non-League football has a lot to offer and shows that football is more that just a couple of hours TV viewing.  Getting the youngsters through the gate is the future of both club and game.  As has been mentioned on Farnham's video and on this forum, it's about creating a match day atmosphere to attract people in, and importantly make them want to come back.

[Ian Pethick]

10 hours ago, sportsman10 said:

I think Taunton are an example. And possibly parkway of clubs probably at the limit of where they can go .  It takes a massive amount of cash input ground upgrade to even complete around the bottom of table. And both clubs have had massive crowds that help. 
I can only think Falmouth as the only one that could do a Taunton and go to that level 

I don’t see it happening at any other Cornish club. (Truro not in the conversation as they are almost a welsh team if they play any further away ) 

Because of where I'm living, I do see a lot of Truro when they play National League South games in the area. Visiting a club like Hampton & Richmond for instance, you get an idea of the difference in ground infrastructure, facilities and "match day experience" between what they offer compared to clubs at step 3 level. They also now have the planning permissions and finance in place to install a 3G playing surface, which opens up the opportunity to get more teams of all ages and abilities playing there.

Hampton had a crowd of almost 1200 (with lots of families and youngsters in attendance making a lot of noise), there was a recently refurbished large bar/clubhouse that had the game v Truro streaming live on the big screen within it, a covered  outside bar and eating area, a truck selling pizza and a well stocked club shop selling replica kits and merchandise. Similar to Farnham in that they have also been acquired by owners with deep pockets who have a vision for the club (and have invested a lot to enable this), and are also based in a very affluent area with a population of many millions within a couple hours of their ground.

Matching this may not be achievable, but the new Truro owner, Eric Perez, talked on the podcast about marketing the club and getting the Cornish population engaged and behind them. Be interesting to hear what his strategy is to achieve this.

[St Darren]

I think Truro may have a new marketing man in place !!!!

[Ian Pethick]

1 hour ago, St Darren said:

I think Truro may have a new marketing man in place !!!!

Big job for whoever has got it.

[The Town Man]

2 hours ago, St Darren said:

I think Truro may have a new marketing man in place !!!!

Output is pretty limited so far!

[St Darren]

Wait for it to step up. Although it v will probably be o my social media sharing about stuff. 

[Railwayman in Exile]

Bit late to this one, but yes Cornish teams are disadvantaged by location & my view would be the further west possibly the greater the disadvantage. Additionally as great as it is that there are more teams at a higher step, there are no more players to call upon then it potentially weakens the leagues below. 

I do believe the models of producing your own with some of the amazing youth systems is the future, it would give a club a production of players for years to come and some of the clubs mentioned above have potentially strong futures. As for money it only takes you so far and ground grading work needs to run in parallel with a youth system or you run the risk of being caught out. I am surprised though a club hasn't put in a 3 or 4G pitch. As much as people might object, it almost guarantees football but is a huge revenue stream. Look at the amount of teams that use them for training and they are in high demand.

In defence of Helston and Le Boss probably knows better, if they were to be promoted their ground grading is nearly complete, apart from a stand, turnstiles and a enclosed ground. they go quietly along, and have for some time, doing a little at a time, one grant after another, little publicity, when you have that volume of youth there is enough infrastructure to do that volume of works.

 

As for Farnham, if you are that close to London then it's easy to pick up players, the volume of teams, academies etc, recruitment is the last of their issues, if you have the money then it's easy, but look at some of those that followed that path, Billericay, Grays, Histon & many others and it tells it's own story.

 

[soccceroo]

you could always try to hire the F-Troop for your big games !!!! or maybe hire a brass band  hahahaha 

[Town Fan]

12 hours ago, soccceroo said:

you could always try to hire the F-Troop for your big games !!!!

Not so much a crowd funder, as fund a crowd!

Sorry pal, we're not for hire.  🤣

 

[Both Sides of the Tamar]

On 04/03/2024 at 20:41, St Darren said:

Look at the catchment area that other clubs have   Especially those in the south east.  You don’t need to pay the expenses that players in the south west of England request. 
 

What teams are sustainable in Cornwall?  Truro? Absolutely no chance, Mousehole, possibly as they have the campsite there that funds a lot. But will that be sustainable if they go up again?  Helston? Reliant on the finances of one man. Falmouth?  Sustainable at their current level but will it be if they go higher?

Bear in mind the elephant in the room. If, and it is a big if, Truro City were to be very successful and very well marketed, is there not a chance that they would suck up support from some of those clubs mentioned? It will be interesting if the new regime can develop a fan base for City upon returning from exile as they have done, with modest success, with their rugby league franchise.

Of all the clubs mentioned, Helston, despite their current standing, are in (my view) the weakest position. A modest ground (despite its improvements), low core support and overly dependent upon the largesse of one individual. Is it not likely they will *always* be overshadowed by Falmouth and a rejuvenated Truro, whatever they do? On the plus side, they are developing a whole club approach, with a good youth and women's set up too. Their flagship first team is superbly led and deservedly tops the WL. I think my view of one of respecting their personnel and achievements, but being realistic as to how much further they can go.

It will not be popular in Cornwall, but in the **long term**, I would think with the right management on and off the field, it is across the Tamar in Plymouth Parkway that there is  the  greater potential for sustained advancement. Mark Russell, their Chairman, said many years ago their goal was National League South and I think this is doable and sustainable. Of course, part of their ambitions are influenced from outside. The more successful Argyle are the tougher the challenge to win hearts and minds. Despite this, many Argyle fans do have PPFC as their 'second' team.  Southern League Premier has been far from easy to date. As I've commented elsewhere, I think we are seeing the toughest test of management that Lee Hobbs and Mark Russell have faced, the pitch is a shambles and has caused both Parkway and Truro immense harm. It'll be interesting to see how the club respond. My hunch is a period of transition  before a further period of advancement. Interesting times!

[Ian Pethick]

Given the extreme rainfall that the region seems to have experienced pretty much non stop since last October, I think the weather will increasingly become a big factor when talking about SW clubs being at a geographical disadvantage.

Will it become pretty much impossible for clubs in Devon & Cornwall to fulfill a 42 game step 3 season, let alone one with 46 games at step 2, on a traditional grass surface?

[Town Fan]

2 hours ago, Ian Pethick said:

Given the extreme rainfall that the region seems to have experienced pretty much non stop since last October, I think the weather will increasingly become a big factor when talking about SW clubs being at a geographical disadvantage.

Will it become pretty much impossible for clubs in Devon & Cornwall to fulfill a 42 game step 3 season, let alone one with 46 games at step 2, on a traditional grass surface?

If it carries on like this, it'll be difficult for any non-league club at any level.

[bighairydave]

6 hours ago, Ian Pethick said:

Given the extreme rainfall that the region seems to have experienced pretty much non stop since last October, I think the weather will increasingly become a big factor when talking about SW clubs being at a geographical disadvantage.

Will it become pretty much impossible for clubs in Devon & Cornwall to fulfill a 42 game step 3 season, let alone one with 46 games at step 2, on a traditional grass surface?

 

Just seen this from Trevose Golf Club, since October we have had 1000mm!

 

 

[cornishteddyboy]

In the nine years since Hereford FC grew from the ashes of Hereford United, the club have spent £570,000 in cash from "Investors" and the Supporters Trust, plus nearly every single penny raised from matchdays such as the gate, bar, sponsorship, 50/50, Golden Goal, program sales, season tickets, etc, etc, just to make it back up to Nationwide North.

We must have spent in the low £-Millions to get where we are with just a few £-Thousands left in the bank account.

At present crowds can only use three sides of the ground but permission has been given to alter the fourth side to a new stand with student flats mostly paid for by the education department. 

This season we have had to really tighten our budget and live with what we got.  If we cant afford a player we don't get.