Officials demise

[THEMAGPIE]

After continuous de participation from officials and the ever increasing poor discipline and conduct I think it’s certainly time for Peninsula Clubs to provide their own “course certified” linesman, certainly doesn’t warrant 3 officials each week especially considering the shortage of officials throughout Cornwall at this time.

[sportsman10]

49 minutes ago, THEMAGPIE said:

After continuous de participation from officials and the ever increasing poor discipline and conduct I think it’s certainly time for Peninsula Clubs to provide their own “course certified” linesman, certainly doesn’t warrant 3 officials each week especially considering the shortage of officials throughout Cornwall at this time.

Doesn’t work unfortunately you end up with worse issues  of so called biased club officials running the line. 

[John Mead]

NLS require 3 appointed Match Officials - and I can't see that changing. Club Linesmen were forced upon teams in the South Western League back in the day, due to a shortage of qualified referees; it wasn't too successful!

[BrummyBarry]

It would free up assistants to enjoy games in lower leagues 

[THEMAGPIE]

Im aware what the requirements currently are but times are changing for the worse, the Peninsula standard doesn’t command 3 officials anymore than the St Piran/top of Combination leagues does so whilst the rapidly diminishing referee numbers continues maybe free up some more officials for other leagues.

[Jeff's Telling]

A game I watched recently, lower than the SWPL, after about ten minutes the ball was close to, but not over the touchline, near the halfway line.

Volunteer club linesmen in place, one I know a bit, decent chap, very active community volunteer.

Player shouts at the top of his voice - you cheating f in c...

Unbelievable, but no action taken !

Apply the rules, send him off,club censure hopefully.

 

[bighairydave]

4 hours ago, John Mead said:

NLS require 3 appointed Match Officials - and I can't see that changing. Club Linesmen were forced upon teams in the South Western League back in the day, due to a shortage of qualified referees; it wasn't too successful!

Where is that? League rules state match officials are appointed by the appointing authority but not whether that is one or three.

[davegrose]

7 hours ago, THEMAGPIE said:

After continuous de participation from officials and the ever increasing poor discipline and conduct I think it’s certainly time for Peninsula Clubs to provide their own “course certified” linesman, certainly doesn’t warrant 3 officials each week especially considering the shortage of officials throughout Cornwall at this time.

Would certainly help clubs out financially as well

[Gorgie]

2 hours ago, bighairydave said:

Where is that? League rules state match officials are appointed by the appointing authority but not whether that is one or three.

Out of interest, do you think it should be one or three...

[bighairydave]

21 minutes ago, Gorgie said:

Out of interest, do you think it should be one or three...

It depends on how many are willing to do the line every week.

[SCFC]

21 hours ago, THEMAGPIE said:

After continuous de participation from officials and the ever increasing poor discipline and conduct I think it’s certainly time for Peninsula Clubs to provide their own “course certified” linesman, certainly doesn’t warrant 3 officials each week especially considering the shortage of officials throughout Cornwall at this time.

I do agree that it would surely be beneficial to have ref's at all levels rather than wasting 3 in an average standard at the SWPL, but the only argument i do have is getting a course certified linesman will be a problem. Lack of volunteers as it is, and clubs in the St Pirans already struggling to find relevant people

[TheOpinionoftheReferee]

The situation with referees is only set to get worse with the merger as there will be a requirement for more assistant referees due to the increase in step 5 games taking place in the county.

[John Mead]

15 hours ago, bighairydave said:

Where is that? League rules state match officials are appointed by the appointing authority but not whether that is one or three.

The "rules" for referee appointments are set by the FA Referees Dept. At Step 6 and above, 3 match officials are currently mandated. I'm not saying that situation cannot change 

[bighairydave]

5 hours ago, John Mead said:

The "rules" for referee appointments are set by the FA Referees Dept. At Step 6 and above, 3 match officials are currently mandated. I'm not saying that situation cannot change 

Looking at the situation now, and the additional games needing to be covered next season I can’t see it being possible to do that next season.

[hoppit]

The thing is a ref can't make a decision on the say so of a club official. The only decision a club official can make is weather the ball is in or out of play,so causes more problems than it solves. I was a level 4 ref for lots of years and found it very difficult to adjust from qualified officials to club officials.

[Tommy Matthews]

Some referees don’t want qualified assistants to make any other decisions than offside and throw ins. 
I recently saw a referee make a decision on a penalty which I’m certain his assistant would have had an entirely different opinion on had he had the opportunity to have his say. 
He was perfectly placed but wasn’t consulted. 

[silly billy]

11 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

Some referees don’t want qualified assistants to make any other decisions than offside and throw ins. 
I recently saw a referee make a decision on a penalty which I’m certain his assistant would have had an entirely different opinion on had he had the opportunity to have his say. 
He was perfectly placed but wasn’t consulted. 

This is what got Budes back up Saturday I think. Several times the linesman had his flag up but the ref just waved it off. Not saying Bude should of reacted like they did though.

[St Darren]

On 22/02/2023 at 17:04, Tommy Matthews said:

Some referees don’t want qualified assistants to make any other decisions than offside and throw ins. 
I recently saw a referee make a decision on a penalty which I’m certain his assistant would have had an entirely different opinion on had he had the opportunity to have his say. 
He was perfectly placed but wasn’t consulted. 

So they're still linesmen (or female alternative) rather than a referees assistant. 

[Tommy Matthews]

11 hours ago, St Darren said:

So they're still linesmen (or female alternative) rather than a referees assistant. 

One would assume so in that particular instance. 

[TheOpinionoftheReferee]

19 hours ago, St Darren said:

So they're still linesmen (or female alternative) rather than a referees assistant. 

No such thing as linesmen (or female alternative). 

There are clubs assistant referees or neutrally appointed assistant referees. 

Most referees will provide pre match instructions about when and where they would like input from their assistants on a variety of scenarios. The most important being ball out of play and offside.

The instructions vary between referees based on a number of parameters such as personal preference of the referee, experience of AR, how often they have worked together and previous experiences of working together.

An assistant referee is there to assist, not insist. And any decision they offer, is still the final decision of the referee who holds the over riding authority.

[Tommy Matthews]

18 minutes ago, TheOpinionoftheReferee said:

No such thing as linesmen (or female alternative). 

There are clubs assistant referees or neutrally appointed assistant referees. 

Most referees will provide pre match instructions about when and where they would like input from their assistants on a variety of scenarios. The most important being ball out of play and offside.

The instructions vary between referees based on a number of parameters such as personal preference of the referee, experience of AR, how often they have worked together and previous experiences of working together.

An assistant referee is there to assist, not insist. And any decision they offer, is still the final decision of the referee who holds the over riding authority.

Absolutely no issue with this, there has to be only one referee, but their assistants are there to do just that, assist. They need all the help they can get and to not involve an assistant who’s in the perfect position seems foolish? Their assistants are clearly chosen at whatever level for their ability so why not use them? 

[TheOpinionoftheReferee]

4 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

Absolutely no issue with this, there has to be only one referee, but their assistants are there to do just that, assist. They need all the help they can get and to not involve an assistant who’s in the perfect position seems foolish? Their assistants are clearly chosen at whatever level for their ability so why not use them? 

That's down to the referee. And what (in their opinion - see law 5 The Referee) they saw. 

It's pretty much universal for the referee to want 3 things at penalty decisions. 1 and 2 are the same. "1. I've seen it. I've given it. 2. I've seen it. I've not given it". The standard here is no involvement from AR, better placed or not.

Number 3 is I am asking for help (and without Comms this is with eye contact and generally looking lost)  at which point the active AR is invited to offer an opinion/decision.

The only time I'd expect input in 1 and 2 is if it is to offer information which matter of fact, not opinion. 

An example of matter of fact could be, the foul occurred outside the penalty area, or the ball was handled by an attacker, not a defender. It is not matter of opinion such as "I don't think that was a foul". 

Obviously this needs the referee to recognise who the best placed match official is and to be able to accept that it's not them and trust the AR to help them out. 

This is pretty much the standard from grassroots through semi professional. Once Comms are involved at step 1 (national league premier) there is a lot more input and communication between the team.

[Tommy Matthews]

58 minutes ago, TheOpinionoftheReferee said:

That's down to the referee. And what (in their opinion - see law 5 The Referee) they saw. 

It's pretty much universal for the referee to want 3 things at penalty decisions. 1 and 2 are the same. "1. I've seen it. I've given it. 2. I've seen it. I've not given it". The standard here is no involvement from AR, better placed or not.

Number 3 is I am asking for help (and without Comms this is with eye contact and generally looking lost)  at which point the active AR is invited to offer an opinion/decision.

The only time I'd expect input in 1 and 2 is if it is to offer information which matter of fact, not opinion. 

An example of matter of fact could be, the foul occurred outside the penalty area, or the ball was handled by an attacker, not a defender. It is not matter of opinion such as "I don't think that was a foul". 

Obviously this needs the referee to recognise who the best placed match official is and to be able to accept that it's not them and trust the AR to help them out. 

This is pretty much the standard from grassroots through semi professional. Once Comms are involved at step 1 (national league premier) there is a lot more input and communication between the team.

Thanks for the explanation. I wouldn’t expect the referee to be perfectly placed every time and had I been in that position I’d look towards my assistant to get confirmation that my decision was right or wrong before making my mind up especially as the ball was going out for a goal kick and there was nothing to lose by consulting my better placed assistant. 
Thanks again, it’s always good to hear from someone who knows more than me. 

[davegrose]

On 20/02/2023 at 09:57, TheOpinionoftheReferee said:

The situation with referees is only set to get worse with the merger as there will be a requirement for more assistant referees due to the increase in step 5 games taking place in the county.

The merger isn't happening now so I'm guessing the refs will stay the same or is there anything in the pipeline to suggest different?

[Terry Stephens]

I was at a Mullion game recently and Mullion were awarded a pen , which the ref didn’t see, but the assistant did,just to iterate what Tom was saying. (Don’t think you get a lot wrong! 5 shirt)

[John Mead]

It's my understanding that if an Assistant Ref feels that a penalty should be awarded, they should move towards the corner flag, rather than raise their flag. The Ref then either confirms or ignores the Assistants opinion without causing confusion from players or spectators. It's similar to a throw-in near the halfway line when the Assistant is a distance away; Refs just indicate which side the throw is going to by a subtle point of his finger, so that the Assistant doesn't indicate the opposite way.

[TheOpinionoftheReferee]

14 hours ago, davegrose said:

The merger isn't happening now so I'm guessing the refs will stay the same or is there anything in the pipeline to suggest different?

Should stay status quo. Posted before news of merger collapse final confirmation.

 

39 minutes ago, John Mead said:

It's my understanding that if an Assistant Ref feels that a penalty should be awarded, they should move towards the corner flag, rather than raise their flag. The Ref then either confirms or ignores the Assistants opinion without causing confusion from players or spectators. It's similar to a throw-in near the halfway line when the Assistant is a distance away; Refs just indicate which side the throw is going to by a subtle point of his finger, so that the Assistant doesn't indicate the opposite way.

The subtle signal is just to indicate in or out of the area. 

If the Assistant needs to signal a foul is committed they must use the appropriate signal. The movement towards the goal line was introduced to prevent the old flag across the chest which was never an approved signal 

[stevieb]

On 22/02/2023 at 17:04, Tommy Matthews said:

Some referees don’t want qualified assistants to make any other decisions than offside and throw ins. 
I recently saw a referee make a decision on a penalty which I’m certain his assistant would have had an entirely different opinion on had he had the opportunity to have his say. 
He was perfectly placed but wasn’t consulted. 

I run , well loosely lol the line( club )  for several seasons , some refs would instruct you ball in and out of play offsides , no fouls,  some if they knew both were trained linos would say ball in ,out , offside,  fouls in front of you if the ref missed it but , all penalty decisions were theirs . Hope this helps , if you seen anything off the ball also you could make the ref aware , but because he hadn't seen it he couldn't award a card , but made players aware what had happened  , enjoyed my time doing it overall,  but the abuse on and off the pitch towards the end was getting worse , was threatened with physical violence, (  cheat comes with the territory) , c u next Tuesday ( fighting talk back in the day ) paedo,  ect ect , and we did it for free all winds and weather  including travelling to games , to help put something back into grassroots football  . The threat towards the end was probably the final nail for me but also arthritis in my knee was getting worse  , now I just support from the sidelines when I can .

[Tommy Matthews]

12 hours ago, stevieb said:

I run , well loosely lol the line( club )  for several seasons , some refs would instruct you ball in and out of play offsides , no fouls,  some if they knew both were trained linos would say ball in ,out , offside,  fouls in front of you if the ref missed it but , all penalty decisions were theirs . Hope this helps , if you seen anything off the ball also you could make the ref aware , but because he hadn't seen it he couldn't award a card , but made players aware what had happened  , enjoyed my time doing it overall,  but the abuse on and off the pitch towards the end was getting worse , was threatened with physical violence, (  cheat comes with the territory) , c u next Tuesday ( fighting talk back in the day ) paedo,  ect ect , and we did it for free all winds and weather  including travelling to games , to help put something back into grassroots football  . The threat towards the end was probably the final nail for me but also arthritis in my knee was getting worse  , now I just support from the sidelines when I can .

Sorry to hear that you suffered abuse, there’s absolutely no excuse for that. If I was refereeing I’d want all the help I could get because I know I’d never be able to see everything and if you had a better view than me I’d want/value your opinion. 
When you’ve got a qualified assistants working alongside you, why make it harder for yourself than it already is? That’s all I’m perplexed about?