Referees in the Premier league.

[Dave Deacon]

Bit like the Wolves player Saturday - embarrassing to watch! (Admittedly the Bournemouth shouldn't have reacted in the way he did, but no excuse for the Wolves player basically cheating!). 

[We Two]

The problm is that cheating is accepted in some quarters of the game, simply because of the money involved that  encourages it to happen.

[fenman]

Speaking as an ardent Wolves fan Dave I totally agree with you it was embarrasing to watch .I think there is something wrong with the game that older people grew up with ( or in my case almost grew up with ) .Most players would have been embarrassed to show pain and overreact to a touch .

Digressing onto another sport , one of my cricket heroes was John Edrich  a Norfolk man who played for England and Surrey in the 50's and 60's  once played against Australia with a broken wrist caused by being hit by a fast bowler . Brian Close playing with him was covered in bruises after being hit several times in the ribs   . When asked why they didn't receive treatment on the pitch they both said " you can't show any form of weakness in sport " .

Also "we two " don't you think the pundits have to shoulder some of the blame by saying " he had to do it for the team " ?.

In my view we live now in a strange society where people don't seem to have a mind of their own, they must follow the herd whether it be nonsensical grammar or  paying a fortune for ripped clothes . The behavior of these  professional ? players   will and is copied by both young players and grown up players and will soon be accepted as the norm .

[We Two]

3 hours ago, fenman said:

Also "we two " don't you think the pundits have to shoulder some of the blame by saying " he had to do it for the team " ?.

Quite right Fenman and some of the "pundits" are the very ex players who helped introduce the problem.
You reference to the John Edrich and Brian Close attitude to serious injury and discomfort strengthens my opinion of the fabricated injuries that we observe in football today.
I never thought I would say say that football today has a lot to learn about being strong but still respecting the rules and the officials from the men who play the game of rugby.
 

[fenman]

Another great day for referees and VAR St Darren .

[St Darren]

24 minutes ago, fenman said:

Another great day for referees and VAR St Darren .

You guys seem to have some shockers against you!!

They really just don’t work together, when the referees go into the VAR room they just become even more inadequate 

[We Two]

On 08/10/2023 at 18:01, St Darren said:

So are we starting to come round to my conclusion that they’re all rubbish.

 

On 09/10/2023 at 12:52, St Darren said:

The laws of the game don’t help that’s for sure.  

Change the laws, install foreign refs, all refs and game officials are rubbish, what a state our national game has arrived at, who can save us all and come up with a system that is always correct and simple to adhere to ?
Answers on a postcard to The F.A.  ASAP

[Dave Deacon]

It would seem that what we had before VAR perhaps wasn’t as bad after all! 🤭

[fenman]

My comments don't necessarily relate to the Wolves games  , there are worse decisions involving other teams . The problem is several incidents of VAR mistakes can have a major effect on relegation , or European qualification . Taking Wolves as an example , assuming that they had scored from the Manchester United penalty , the penalty wrongly given against them in the Luton game  they would now be well into the top ten above Chelsea (  good advert for  spending millions )  and Manchester United . and most importantly well away from the relegation zone . Being fair minded I know that Wolves will benefit from a VAR  circular shaped thing up in the future  BUT !!!!! ..  On the Wolves website one of the fans suggested replacing all the VAR people with either Rugby officials or cricket officials as neither of those sports seem to suffer the same problems .

Digressing slightly from the subject I have this thought that as Premiership clubs become more and more American owned and with television companies seemly having  a big say in the rules and fixtures , that the game as we know it will become more of a circus . We already have players celebrating in a childish theatrical  fashion after scoring a penalty . How long before we have marching bands parading around the perimeter of the pitch after a goal . I'm sure most of us older ( god bless him ) fans would rather go back to the days when players earnt twice what a bricklayer earnt , didn't cheat and played more entertaining  football . There are times when it would be more entertaining watch a chess game . Sadly I suppose we are going to accept that  the game has to cater for younger people and the " prawn sandwich brigade " , a pity really .

Still from selfish point I've still got my motorcycle sport to watch  World Superbike and British Superbikes this season have  been far more entertaining than the majority of Premiership games .

 I still think my childish pictures of the VAR officials sums it all up .

Ps I've got no excuse for rambling on the site today , the sun is shining brightly here on the Norfolk Broads  and I've got the lunch to prepare  and some cabbage plants to set on the allotment .

[bighairydave]

2 hours ago, fenman said:

My comments don't necessarily relate to the Wolves games  , there are worse decisions involving other teams . The problem is several incidents of VAR mistakes can have a major effect on relegation , or European qualification . Taking Wolves as an example , assuming that they had scored from the Manchester United penalty , the penalty wrongly given against them in the Luton game  they would now be well into the top ten above Chelsea (  good advert for  spending millions )  and Manchester United . and most importantly well away from the relegation zone . Being fair minded I know that Wolves will benefit from a VAR  circular shaped thing up in the future  BUT !!!!! ..  On the Wolves website one of the fans suggested replacing all the VAR people with either Rugby officials or cricket officials as neither of those sports seem to suffer the same problems .

Digressing slightly from the subject I have this thought that as Premiership clubs become more and more American owned and with television companies seemly having  a big say in the rules and fixtures , that the game as we know it will become more of a circus . We already have players celebrating in a childish theatrical  fashion after scoring a penalty . How long before we have marching bands parading around the perimeter of the pitch after a goal . I'm sure most of us older ( god bless him ) fans would rather go back to the days when players earnt twice what a bricklayer earnt , didn't cheat and played more entertaining  football . There are times when it would be more entertaining watch a chess game . Sadly I suppose we are going to accept that  the game has to cater for younger people and the " prawn sandwich brigade " , a pity really .

Still from selfish point I've still got my motorcycle sport to watch  World Superbike and British Superbikes this season have  been far more entertaining than the majority of Premiership games .

 I still think my childish pictures of the VAR officials sums it all up .

Ps I've got no excuse for rambling on the site today , the sun is shining brightly here on the Norfolk Broads  and I've got the lunch to prepare  and some cabbage plants to set on the allotment .

The Luton penalty wasn’t incorrect, but a valid point otherwise!

[St Darren]

Use it for decisions that are ‘yes or no’. Has the ball gone over the line? Is the player offside?  The rest is opinion and subjective. 
 

I think we can cope with referees mistakes but not when they have video replays to back up their wrongs!!

[fenman]

It's all history now Dave , but according to people cleverer than me ( most of the worlds population except for probably half a dozen ) the rule is that if the ball ricochets off a player onto his hand it is not a penalty , well this was what occured  in the Luton game .So according to the rules it wasn't a penalty . Whether it was or not it was given and that's it . I do wonder where this VAR fiasco will end up after the farcical scenes at the weekend ie 5 minutes to review a situation in the Burnley game , the strange penalty in the Manchester derby  and so on every week . Reverting back to the Wolves / Newcastle game  one of the fans said " the referee made an honest mistake because he saw it at normal speed once , but the VAR  people saw it several times at various speed and angles and still got it wrong , what a shambles we would have been able to accept the ref making an error seeing something once but not the VAR team  , it's spoiling the game ". Has VAR been introduced at the insistence of the television companies to inject even more drama into the game ?Personally I think that television companies having a major input into the Premiership is bad for the game . For example , sin bins have been successful  in dealing with dissent at grass roots level but won't be used in the professional game because the television masters don't want it . The fixtures are set to suit television rather than paying fans , for example , and my apologies for using Wolves again , Chelsea have to travel to Wolves on Christmas Eve . Obviously the travelling Chelsea fans  take second , third or fourth place to television coverage 

The is no truth in the rumour that Dave Deacon is giving me my own section to air my views and poor jokes on this forum . Well not until my cheque clears .

[Dave Deacon]

What about players now when they go down holding their head? Puts the referee in a very difficult position as he has to blow to stop play, and when he has, it turns out the player on the ground has “hurt” his leg rather than his head! Again the “dark art of gamemanship” being used!

[St Darren]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

What about players now when they go down holding their head? Puts the referee in a very difficult position as he has to blow to stop play, and when he has, it turns out the player on the ground has “hurt” his leg rather than his head! Again the “dark art of gamemanship” being used!

This has been an issue for a while.  It’s hard for the referee as on the odd occasion that it could be serious it’s on him!  They now go off for 30 secs but it’s the momentum stopper that works for the team. 

[Dave Deacon]

32 minutes ago, St Darren said:

This has been an issue for a while.  It’s hard for the referee as on the odd occasion that it could be serious it’s on him!  They now go off for 30 secs but it’s the momentum stopper that works for the team. 

Should it be a longer break than 30 seconds? 5 minutes perhaps? 

[St Darren]

27 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Should it be a longer break than 30 seconds? 5 minutes perhaps? 

There is that but could they also lead to concussion issues with players trying to stay on as they don’t want to be off for 5 mins.  It’s a real tough one. 
 

I feel that every time a game is stopped for a potential injury the player has to go off.
 

Maybe a minute or 2 minutes is worth looking at

[bighairydave]

On 30/10/2023 at 14:50, fenman said:

It's all history now Dave , but according to people cleverer than me ( most of the worlds population except for probably half a dozen ) the rule is that if the ball ricochets off a player onto his hand it is not a penalty , well this was what occured  in the Luton game .So according to the rules it wasn't a penalty . Whether it was or not it was given and that's it .

Not the case, the deflection isn’t part of law. The reason it was correct was because of the position of the arm being so high above the head.

 

Agree regarding the Newcastle penalty though, and the fact Antony Taylor has been demoted this weekend tells its own story as well!

[St Darren]

48 minutes ago, bighairydave said:

Not the case, the deflection isn’t part of law. The reason it was correct was because of the position of the arm being so high above the head.

 

Agree regarding the Newcastle penalty though, and the fact Antony Taylor has been demoted this weekend tells its own story as well!

Why has Taylor been demoted though?  It should be the VAR fella that is demoted.  

[fenman]

A couple of Wolves fans have made similar comments on their site St Darren . They said " in defence of the ref. he had a  split second to make a decision , VAR officials had 3 or 4 minutes to look at it from different angles , If he  (the ref. ) got it wrong in the opinion of the FA how is it that the VAR officials haven't been suspended ?."

[St Darren]

1 hour ago, fenman said:

A couple of Wolves fans have made similar comments on their site St Darren . They said " in defence of the ref. he had a  split second to make a decision , VAR officials had 3 or 4 minutes to look at it from different angles , If he  (the ref. ) got it wrong in the opinion of the FA how is it that the VAR officials haven't been suspended ?."

Because they (the pgmol) have no one to answer too.  They’re not governed by anyone. 

[St Darren]

1 hour ago, Keith B said:

This whole subject is getting ridiculous. Keep goal line tech but - get rid of VAR.

Let the on field officials get on with their jobs as has always been, and let's end this ongoing/pointless arguing. 

Sadly, I see in this morning's newspaper that Wayne Barnes the Rugby World Cup referee (probably the best rugby ref in the world) has quit refereeing - both he and his wife having received death threats. Seemingly sour grapes from poor losers.

There shouldn’t be arguments over factual decisions though Keith. Therefore goal line technology and offsides should be fine. 
 

However, because of the incompetence of VAR officials at the Spurs v Liverpool game I’m not even sure about this now. 

[fenman]

Regarding the rugby ref , his problem is the wonderful  Septic Tank of social media . It's opened the door to countless cranks and keyboard warriors ruining peoples lives .

Totally agree with you St. Darren  except on the offside bit  . With the line official  it's most likely an obvious offside , a foot in old money , but now we are looking at almost the accuracy that Rolls Royce build their jet engines ., which takes minutes to watch and draw lines .. One disallowed goal that springs to mind was  the Pukki goal for Norwich ( pronounced Naaaridge in Norfolk ) against Spurs  . It was an extremely tight decision  when he received the ball , but it was never clarified where he was when the ball was kicked , a point which changes the whole decision . This is another problem with VAR  . I agree that the linesperson possibly wouldn't have known where he was when the ball was kicked so fans have to live with his decision BUT VAR was brought in to eliminate  any argument .

One further point which people seem to overlook . Why is VAR only used in the Premier league ? isn't the rest of football important enough to warrant it ? . Is this a case of the Premiership becoming the most important game  and warrants separate rules  ? If  there is a requirement  for the Premiership to be the spearhead of   new rules etc. to improve the game , why hasn't the sin bin been introduced  to combat certain players ( Wolves players included ) from constantly arguing and whinging to the referee  and his / her assistants .

Over to you St. Darren 

[St Darren]

52 minutes ago, fenman said:

Regarding the rugby ref , his problem is the wonderful  Septic Tank of social media . It's opened the door to countless cranks and keyboard warriors ruining peoples lives .

Totally agree with you St. Darren  except on the offside bit  . With the line official  it's most likely an obvious offside , a foot in old money , but now we are looking at almost the accuracy that Rolls Royce build their jet engines ., which takes minutes to watch and draw lines .. One disallowed goal that springs to mind was  the Pukki goal for Norwich ( pronounced Naaaridge in Norfolk ) against Spurs  . It was an extremely tight decision  when he received the ball , but it was never clarified where he was when the ball was kicked , a point which changes the whole decision . This is another problem with VAR  . I agree that the linesperson possibly wouldn't have known where he was when the ball was kicked so fans have to live with his decision BUT VAR was brought in to eliminate  any argument .

One further point which people seem to overlook . Why is VAR only used in the Premier league ? isn't the rest of football important enough to warrant it ? . Is this a case of the Premiership becoming the most important game  and warrants separate rules  ? If  there is a requirement  for the Premiership to be the spearhead of   new rules etc. to improve the game , why hasn't the sin bin been introduced  to combat certain players ( Wolves players included ) from constantly arguing and whinging to the referee  and his / her assistants .

Over to you St. Darren 

The offside law though is one that var can use as it should be proof. Doesn’t matter what tolerances you make, the lines can be drawn at that place so it should be used. 
 

with regards to var being used at other levels, the Chelsea ladies manager was asking for it a few weeks ago but it just isn’t possible with the grounds that they play at.  The cameras wouldn’t be high enough to have a good enough angle of the pitch. Same for most of the lower league sides as well. 

[St Darren]

2 hours ago, Keith B said:

Women's international match's don't have VAR either. Talk about paying lip service to the women's game. Football finance from sponsors and TV rights etc, the game generally is awash with money but - only for the men's games seemingly.  

They had it in the World Cup. Once again I imagine it’s to do with some of the grounds they use

[St Darren]

@fenman another one against your guys today!!!  It’s never a penalty and VAR should be able to see that. 

[fenman]

Can't comment Darren , I haven't seen I'm a bit despondent about the loss , but like all fans of all clubs I wonder why I get dispirited about losing , I mean it doesn't affect me personally or pay my rates if they win . But footballs like that I wonder why ?

[St Darren]

The Newcastle Arsenal game has seen a Newcastle player lead a forearm to the head of an Arsenal player and VAR haven’t got involved!!!

[Dave Deacon]

Karma for when a player goes down holding his head and he’s acting! 
 

What was more disappointing that between the two sides only 3 shots on target! 

[St Darren]

6 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Karma for when a player goes down holding his head and he’s acting! 
 

What was more disappointing that between the two sides only 3 shots on target! 

Agree.  But not sure what the answer is for that. Still no excuse for a forearm to the head, I’m not sure why VAR hasn’t seen that as violent conduct 

[Dave Deacon]

Arsenal Football Club wholeheartedly supports Mikel Arteta’s post-match comments after yet more unacceptable refereeing and VAR errors on Saturday evening.

We’d also like to acknowledge the huge effort and performance from our players and travelling supporters at St James’ Park.

The Premier League is the best league in the world with the best players, coaches and supporters, all of whom deserve better. PGMOL urgently needs to address the standard of officiating and focus on action which moves us all on from retrospective analysis, attempted explanations and apologies.

We support the ongoing efforts of Chief Refereeing Officer, Howard Webb and would welcome working together to achieve the world-class officiating standards our league demands.

 

Copyright 2023 The Arsenal Football Club Limited. Permission to use quotations from this article is granted subject to appropriate credit being given to www.arsenal.com as the source.

[St Darren]

29 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Arsenal Football Club wholeheartedly supports Mikel Arteta’s post-match comments after yet more unacceptable refereeing and VAR errors on Saturday evening.

We’d also like to acknowledge the huge effort and performance from our players and travelling supporters at St James’ Park.

The Premier League is the best league in the world with the best players, coaches and supporters, all of whom deserve better. PGMOL urgently needs to address the standard of officiating and focus on action which moves us all on from retrospective analysis, attempted explanations and apologies.

We support the ongoing efforts of Chief Refereeing Officer, Howard Webb and would welcome working together to achieve the world-class officiating standards our league demands.

 

Copyright 2023 The Arsenal Football Club Limited. Permission to use quotations from this article is granted subject to appropriate credit being given to www.arsenal.com as the source.

Arteta said after the Spurs Liverpool debacle that “mistakes happen” ….  Obviously only matters when suits!!

He along with other managers had the opportunity to come out and say stuff after the Spurs game but he chose to side with the officials. 
 

The PGMOL have so much to answer to though as it’s a week in week out thing note because of VAR.  

The goal for Newcastle was subjective however so you get some, some you don’t.  But the issue with Bruno and his forearm to the head was shocking. 

[fenman]

I've seen it St. Darren !!!!!! As regards the game itself Wolves should have wrapped it up in the first half , but were awful in the second half so really can't have any complaints  about only getting a draw . But it's gut wrenching for any manager to concede a penalty like that again . The referee you can possibly  excuse but not the Marx Brothers at Stockley who were able to see it several times .I think as a Wolves fan you feel hard done by but  now you join the club of most teams  whose day has been ruined by poor decisions week in week out .

as you say Keith " where do we go from here "

[St Darren]

1 hour ago, fenman said:

I've seen it St. Darren !!!!!! As regards the game itself Wolves should have wrapped it up in the first half , but were awful in the second half so really can't have any complaints  about only getting a draw . But it's gut wrenching for any manager to concede a penalty like that again . The referee you can possibly  excuse but not the Marx Brothers at Stockley who were able to see it several times .I think as a Wolves fan you feel hard done by but  now you join the club of most teams  whose day has been ruined by poor decisions week in week out .

as you say Keith " where do we go from here "

We go to other countries and ask referees to referee in our league!!

Saudi have done it to some of our refs

[Dave Deacon]

22 hours ago, St Darren said:

Arteta said after the Spurs Liverpool debacle that “mistakes happen” ….  Obviously only matters when suits!!

Isn't that the same most places?

[St Darren]

18 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Isn't that the same most places?

Yes, but he had the chance then to call it out but he didn’t. 

[St Darren]

Incoming!!

 

[St Darren]

Mixed game for VAR tonight.  Good deciding in the awarding penalty for Chelsea.  How on earth he’s given offside for the stroke on goal though when the player is on the edge of the box. Remember the Man City goal against Fulham that wasn’t given offside. 
 

but how the player wasn’t sent off for the 2 foot challenge was shocking.  Romero could have also been sent off earlier as well. 
 

the inconsistency in refereeing continues though.  Oliver didn’t book a player for a blatant pull back. He failed to book players for going into the crowd celebrating.  It’s a rubbish law but it’s a law when refs have booked players for it earlier in the season. 

[fenman]

Several  points  , one  is  ,  if 6000+ people read this forum why is it that only 4 or 5  have an opinion on this serious problem ? 

Secondly , taking an independent  view on this problem , does there need to be  a huge shake up  of the referees training and their abilities , the Marx Brothers film being made at Stockley ( VAR)  and possibly more importantly the behaviour of the players  ? 

What other sport in the world turns a blind eye to the antics of players of all clubs with rare if any exceptions . The wholesale diving to get a penalty or free kick , the wrestling at corners , the arguing with the officials , the abuse of officials  ,  the removal of shirts , the jumping into the crowd  etc etc . Is it because the players themselves arn't very intelligent enough to understand the rules . Don't laugh because how many players recently have been booked and a few seconds later done something stupid like kicking the ball away .?

[Dave Deacon]

With what they earn, they don’t have to care! 

[St Darren]

I’ve also just seen the penalty that Antony Taylor gave at Preston at the weekend. 
 

have a look at that one. 

[fenman]

Interesting interview with Neil Warnock on Sky  Sports  last night . Although he's a Marmite type of character ( I would say controversial but I can't spell it ) he's an interesting person nevertheless  having played the game and is a qualified referee . Unafraid to mince his words he described one current referee  as having no personality and said that the majority of the Stockley Park crew had never played football so were unable to understand tackling etc . He said that the VAR officials should be ex players who understood the game .

He's probably right , most of the Premiership players could do with a few quid to supplement their income . But one advantage is that they know most of the dark arts of cheating so would be well qualified for the job .

Although the interview was quite interesting  I thought that there was a figure immediately  behind Warnock prompting him , it looked suspicously like St. Darren  although I could be mistaken .

In all seriousness after the Manchester United game last night it appears that VAR problems are not unique to the Premiership .

Digressing from the subject , with all the furore about VAR and the premiership very few people are concerned about  a more serious problem  within the game and that is clubs folding through lack of players  countrywide .The Premiership is only a small fraction of the football played in the country  but the media are more concerned with the Premiership than anything beneath it . The phrase " pub football " is used to describe grass roots football . What a ridiculous turn of phrase  and an affront to the people who give up their time and money to run village teams throughout the country .

End of rant the Mem Sahib says I've got to get off my soapbox and take her shopping .

[St Darren]

A good idea about ex players but it wouldn’t work due to potential bias!

They just need to be better and understand things more. They also need to understand “threshold” or get rid of it. The VAR can slow things down and still an image which makes something look far worse. They currently talk about “clear and obvious”. Well what is that?  There aren’t really many of those decisions, although Wolves have had 3 go against them. 
 

Subjectivity is part of the game and each referee will have a different opinion. 
 

We either accept that the referees are going to make mistakes or we use VAR properly.  I still can’t get my head around how VAR can’t say something to the referee about that guimares (Bruno) for Newcastle elbow to the head, the ref hasn’t seen it therefore not even a yellow!!  

[fenman]

To give credit where its due , referee Mr . Robinson had a really good game in the Wolves / Spurs game , he let the game flow in spite of a few robust but fair tackles by both teams , where some other referees would have stopped play and given out lectures .

[St Darren]

The inconsistency from this awful bunch is astounding. 
 

Simon Hooper books two players in the Villa v Spurs game for kicking the ball away. John Brooks doesn’t book 2 players for kicking the ball away in the Everton v Man Utd game. 
 

is it any wonder managers get fed up with the absolute dross that is in control of games. 

[Dave Deacon]

2 hours ago, St Darren said:

The inconsistency from this awful bunch is astounding. 

I think it's the inconsistency thing that is frustrating throughout all the levels of competitive football!

Can't see what can be done to improve it as people have different levels of patience before a card is produced.

[St Darren]

28 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

I think it's the inconsistency thing that is frustrating throughout all the levels of competitive football!

Can't see what can be done to improve it as people have different levels of patience before a card is produced.

First of all get the Premier League overseen by an independent panel. This then means that they can approach the PGMOL and say improve your game or we’ll bring in other referees.  
 

At the moment the owners of clubs can’t say anything because it goes against their club.  

The PGMOL have no one to answer to but themselves. 

[Dave Deacon]

13 hours ago, St Darren said:

improve your game or we’ll bring in other referees.  

You advocating bringing in refs from Europe? 

[St Darren]

13 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

You advocating bringing in refs from Europe? 

Absolutely.  Why not? There’s probably more foreign players in the premier league than English players. 
 

it also eliminates any accusations of regional bias.  The ref in the City v Liverpool game was from Greater Manchester!!!  In all fairness I thought he had a decent game but then he didn’t have many big decisions to make. 

[St Darren]

Wolves are shafted again with the decisions of last night!!

 

how long can this go on for. 

[Dave Deacon]

It’s all a farce isn’t it!