Trelawny Promotions/Relegations?

[markw]

unfairly? pull the other one Kev

[Martin Eddy]

everytime i have been to a junior league agm they have relegated 2 teams and then filled the vacancies from below all teams should have known before a ball was kicked that the bottom two would be relegated so why should you be thinking differently now.

why should the league take the blame? when they set the leagues and fixtures up were they to know that teams were going to pull out!!

they tried to rectify the situation in div.6 with a cup competition and see the thanks they got for that,yes it was not a success but at least they tried.

if any of you doubting thomas's think you can do a better job i hear there are vacancies on the committee this year(i wonder why) put your names forward and give up hours of your spare time for nothing just so a bunch of players can moan at you for even trying.rant over

i for one would like to thank the committee for all their hard work this year enjoy your summer and look forward to next season

[Phil]

I would also like to thank the committee for all their hard work this year :drink:

[Midfield Marvel]

16 teams are too many in my opinion based only on the fixture scheduling for this season. We (St Agnes 2nds) were still playing in late may (having crammed 7 games into May) and there were only 12 teams in the league. Add another 8 fixtures and we would never have managed to play all the games.

[cornishteddyboy]

Can I put in my tuppence worth.

Premier Division

Top: Holmans and Penzance relegated from Combo, Ludgvan and Goonhavern promoted to Combo

Bottom: Mousehole releagated to Division 1, Constantine, Redurth United and St Kevern promoted from Division 1.

14 teams in Premier Division

Division 1

Top: Mousehole relegated from Premier division, Constantine, Redruth United and St Kevern promoted to Premier division

Bottom: Trevenson relegated to Division 2, Helston, Lizard and West Cornwall promoted from Divison 2

13 clubs in Division 1

Div 2

Top: Trevenson relegated from Division 1, Helston, West Cornwall and Lizard promoted to Division 1

Bottom Trispen and Storm relegated to Division 3, Wendron, Culdrose and Falmouth Athletic promoted from Division 3.

13 clubs in Division 2

Division 3

Top :Trispen and Storm relegated from Division 2, Wendron, Culdrose and Falmouth Athletic promoted to Division 2.

Bottom: St Agnes and Mousehole relegated to Division 4, Wendron 3rds, Mawnan Reserves and Ruan Minor promoted from Division 4

13 clubs in Division 3

Division 4

Top: St Agnes and Mousehole relegated from Division 3, Wendron 3rds, Mawnan Reserves and Ruan Minor promoted to Division 3.

Bottom: Madron and Constantine relegated to Division 5, West Cornwall and Hayle promoted from Division 5

13 Clubs in Division 4

Division 5

Top: Madron and Constantine relegated from Division 4, West Cornwall and Hayle promoted to Division 4.

Bottom: Trenson and Ludgvan relegated to Division 6, Four Lanes and Redruth United promoted from Division 6

13 clubs in Division 5

Division 6

Top: Trevenson and Ludgvan relegated from Division 5, Four Lanes and Redruth United promoted to Division 5.

Bottom: Allow only 3 of the applying teams to join the league

13 clubs in Division 6

If a club cannot raise a side a 3-0 win should be awarded to the other side and a point deducted from the team not able to raise a side.

[skippy]

Can I put in my tuppence worth.

Premier Division

Top: Holmans and Penzance relegated from Combo, Ludgvan and Goonhavern promoted to Combo

Bottom: Mousehole releagated to Division 1, Constantine, Redurth United and St Kevern promoted from Division 1.

14 teams in Premier Division

Division 1

Top: Mousehole relegated from Premier division, Constantine, Redruth United and St Kevern promoted to Premier division

Bottom: Trevenson relegated to Division 2, Helston, Lizard and West Cornwall promoted from Divison 2

13 clubs in Division 1

Div 2

Top: Trevenson relegated from Division 1, Helston, West Cornwall and Lizard promoted to Division 1

Bottom Trispen and Storm relegated to Division 3, Wendron, Culdrose and Falmouth Athletic promoted from Division 3.

13 clubs in Division 2

Division 3

Top :Trispen and Storm relegated from Division 2, Wendron, Culdrose and Falmouth Athletic promoted to Division 2.

Bottom: St Agnes and Mousehole relegated to Division 4, Wendron 3rds, Mawnan Reserves and Ruan Minor promoted from Division 4

13 clubs in Division 3

Division 4

Top: St Agnes and Mousehole relegated from Division 3, Wendron 3rds, Mawnan Reserves and Ruan Minor promoted to Division 3.

Bottom: Madron and Constantine relegated to Division 5, West Cornwall and Hayle promoted from Division 5

13 Clubs in Division 4

Division 5

Top: Madron and Constantine relegated from Division 4, West Cornwall and Hayle promoted to Division 4.

Bottom: Trenson and Ludgvan relegated to Division 6, Four Lanes and Redruth United promoted from Division 6

13 clubs in Division 5

Division 6

Top: Trevenson and Ludgvan relegated from Division 5, Four Lanes and Redruth United promoted to Division 5.

Bottom: Allow only 3 of the applying teams to join the league

13 clubs in Division 6

If a club cannot raise a side a 3-0 win should be awarded to the other side and a point deducted from the team not able to raise a side.

Agree with 99% CTB, especially 3 Up / 2 Down to fill one vacancy and 3 Up / 1 Down to fill two vacancies. If all four new teams meet the entry criteria then would it be sensible for Div 1 be brought up to 14?

[le boss]

why not make the lower divisions bigger? The top division teams will be involved in the Percy Stephens cup and the Junior cup whereas the lower divisions have many reserve/third teams so not so many fixtures.

[Mangle]

If a club cannot raise a side a 3-0 win should be awarded to the other side and a point deducted from the team not able to raise a side.

..........and a fine of £250 should be imposed - that will stop clubs who do not give a about losing a couple of points not turning up. They will :)

[Topcat]

Forgetting promotion/relegation for one moment, When everyone left last years agm they was aware that 14 teams were in the premier division. Two teams since have dropped out does,nt really matter if they played a game or not. Therefore you are two teams short. Two teams want to be promoted to Combo and have met the required criteria they go up with two teams been relegated from the combo. You are still two teams short. Now you come to promotion /relegation league agrees to each division having two relegations and two promotions.So you now need to make "space" for two teams to come up, you already have this space so job done. Now you are two teams short in div 1 plus any teams that have withdrawn so follow the same footsteps down each league.No teams deserve to be promoted if they don,t finish in a promotion place, would ludgvan or goonhavern been promoted to combo if they finished 4th in Trelawney league? NO

[le boss]

but what about teams getting relegated - i take it you think no team should be relegated from the premier division either? Why bother having a league competition at all then.

[Fatso]

What a great thread!

• Agree with CTB that spreading the teams out would be a good idea... this would keep the majority of teams happy I'd imagine.
  
• Agree that teams not fulfilling a fixture should lose a point as it may provide that extra incentive.
  
• Agree totally with only allowing a certain number of new teams in. The main reason for this is that at present anyone can put a new team together and think "We'll just join that league... they'll have us". To be in a position to be turning teams away will only serve to provide any prospective new team with the motivation to prepare properly and try to make themselves sustainable. There will be less likelihood of future drop-outs as a result.
  
• Agree that teams outside of the promotion places do not deserve to be promoted
  
• Agree that teams in the relegation places deserve to be relegated (and I play for one!)
  

So the main question is how do you decide who deserves the nod - the relegated team, or the non-promoted team? In my opinion there is no way to choose between the teams other than on merit in terms of ability within the new league (assuming that changes occur and the relagated team may fare better the following season). So for me it has to be the better out of the 2 teams; so perhaps a play-off between teams in this situation would provide a nice bit of competition but would also rule out any of the arguing that is already going on and is likely to carry on weeks into the new season. The team beaten has to accept that they will be in the lower of the 2 leagues they could potentially have been put in. I realise this would pose issues regarding player registration, pitch etc at this time, however these games could potentially be scheduled for right before the new season.

[Martin Eddy]

good idea but what about the compilation of the fixtures.would be a nightmare for the league but!! maybe a good suggestion for the agm?

[The General]

Hello All ! Long time no post I know but I have may a view on this. Teams should pay a financial retainer to join the league, big enough not to to want break the rules. Yes points should be awarded for no shows, yes refs should be compensated if confirmed and no show and ALL PLAYERS SIGNED AND AFFILIATED should be excluded from signing for another side should a club go under.............

Oh and there are many more where they came from................oh its good to be back !!!!!!!!

[Martin Eddy]

good to have you back general,keep them coming

[Topcat]

le boss, lets see if you feel the same way if Helston finish 4th from bottom and a team pulls out the league so you get relegated.I can't help but feel that many posts on rthis topic are a case of "i,m alright jack" everything is ok till your club is the one thats hard done by.

Bit like the way you wanted Helston to jump 2 leagues last agm remember some of us have good memories.

[le boss]

i did not want to jump 2 leagues, i wanted the leagues to be bigger and therefore achieve the promotion that our season deserved. So perhaps your memory is not as good as you think. Have re-read all my posts and not sure that i said 4th from bottom should be relegated. Bottom 1 or 2 yes and should we finish there next year (which i very much doubt) then we will deserve to get relegated. There should be penalties for teams withdrawing but i don't think any team withdrawing has had any bearing on the season's results - don't think those teams played many or any games. I maybe wrong - won't be the first time!!!

[Magic Mike]

i did not want to jump 2 leagues, i wanted the leagues to be bigger and therefore achieve the promotion that our season deserved. So perhaps your memory is not as good as you think. Have re-read all my posts and not sure that i said 4th from bottom should be relegated. Bottom 1 or 2 yes and should we finish there next year (which i very much doubt) then we will deserve to get relegated. There should be penalties for teams withdrawing but i don't think any team withdrawing has had any bearing on the season's results - don't think those teams played many or any games. I maybe wrong - won't be the first time!!!

i agree with Le Boss on the system last season that only St Day "went up"

was really strange how it all worked out really!!

heres to another round of how to sort out these age old issues!

i think after next season the trelawney league will be more settled though

this was the first year after all remember!

[cornishteddyboy]

Do Penzance get a parachute payment for joining the Trelawney League just like the clubs that are relegated from the Premier League to The Championship? :D

[Magic Mike]

Do Penzance get a parachute payment for joining the Trelawney League just like the clubs that are relegated from the Premier League to The Championship?

yeah its equal to the amount it would have cost your good self to get into all the combo games for the season!

[Topcat]

How about this then for a scenario that could possibly happen in seasons to come.

Premier Div, 2 teams drop out as they did this year.

Div 1, 4 teams withdraw,top 4 teams have all got 1st teams in premier Div (ie Mawnan,carharrack,Wendron,Hayle for example only)so none of these teams can be promoted.

As per league rules Premier Div Relegates 2 teams so they now require 4 teams to be promoted,with top 4 teams from div1 unable to be promoted they take the next 4 places 5,6,7+8 Premier div is now back to required teams.

Div 1 now as per league rules MUST relegate bottom 2, problem is you,ve just promoted them. Therefore lets relegate teams in 3rd and 4th position.And top up your division with 10 teams from div 2

I challenge anyone on this forum to name a league as well known as the trelawney league that still relegates teams even though teams have withdrawn and promote other clubs that finish outside of a promotion place in the div below.

[scotchio]

so because penryn and robartes folded there sides in the prem it has cost mousehole and carharrack a premier league position. this seems very crap. why not just do what everybody at clubs have spoke to and just promote 2 sides from div 1 and relegate non. simples really saves numbers and hassle but we all know nothing is ever done with an easy option in cornwall.

if ur going to the agm take the next day off cause its gonna be a very long night with teams fighting for there rights!!

from a personal perspective i only took over perranporth reserves at the end of jan and we had three points( am i sounding like redknapp here)

anyhoo we finished the season strongly as at last we had a motivated manager that the players hated more than the previous one My point is we ended up 3rd from bottom.Ordinarily i would expect to get relegated but a club dropped out of our league and therefore i would hope we stay up.The majority of teams in T1 are very evenly matched only constantine and redruth were in a different class and good luck to them in the premier....no disrespect but i think st keverne would get murdered in the premier as would any other T1 team that accepts promotion other than redruth and constantine.Sennen and trevenson are also too good to go down..in my opinion...although saying that if all three of us go down then thats what we all expected anyway.Its difficult and i don`t know the history of the leagues as i`m from norfolk and only just got involved.So i`ll keep my fingers crossed that my boys get to stay in T1 and if i`m honest i`d like to see sennen and trevenson stay up and our league receive 2 or 3 promoted teams from T2.Thats just my opinion

[Topcat]

Scotchio, good post and as you said you would expect to be relegated in normal circumstances, and St Keverne and Perranwell would have known that finishing 3rd and 4th respectably they would,nt get promoted,so why does it cause such a fracas by keeping the likes of carharrack that finished 6 places above perranwell?????????????????

[El Nino 9]

This is a good subject but i do think there sould be at least 1 relegation from each league,maybe harsh on the bottom team in the prem because penryn and my old club robartes pulled out before a ball was kicked.i played the majority of the season just gone in trewlawny 2 which had alot of tidy sides that are easily good enough to compete in trewlawny 1.have a good summer peeps.. :D

[Bambi]

Reading the debate with interest. So many variables to take into account as it would appear no decision was made at the beginning of the season in respect of the number of teams being promoted and relegated from each division.

Personally, the Premier Division should eventually contain 16 teams (playing 30 league games and not 22 like this season) as any team that earns promotion into the Combination

League would play 38 league games. This should

help prepare the promoted club for Combination

football. The remaining leagues should aim for 14 teams.

For the forthcoming season fairness and common sense should be applied in organising the divisions, taking into account teams that dropped out the league before the season started etc.

Hopefully, the league will make the promotion and relegation requirements clear for all clubs next season.

[markw]

Topcat, saying carharrack finished 6 places above Perranwell is inaccurate, irrelavent and misleading as they are seperate leagues.

If you finish at the bottom, clearly you are not at the right level for that division, prove yourself in the next league.

[ballsax]

There are good points for promotion/relegation on both sides of the argument. Personally, I feel there should be teams relegated and promoted, regardless of the teams that pulled out of the leagues before the season got going. I won't say how many should go up or down due to not wanting to sound biased as we finished 3rd in our league. I can understand the comments from Jamie C and the like, about it being unfair that they finished 2nd bottom having had 2 teams pull out, and could still go down, however over the course of a whole season, in every league, you finish where you deserve to finish, whether it be top or bottom. Everybody plays the same amount of games against the same teams. If you finished bottom 2, then you should accept it if you are to be relegated. Would it be fair if 2 stayed up, and Constantine and Redruth didn't get to go up having walked their league? I don't think so. I think if the shoe was on the other foot people would see things differently. You have to make the leagues as competitive as possible, I know Carharrack took points off some good sides in the Prem, but over the whole season, 1 good game in 8 doesn't mean you were competing at the level you should be at. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm having a go at 1 club, its not what I'm intending to do, its just that the Prem division will be the starting point for promotion/relegation, then it will go down through the leagues as to how many go up/down. Everyone will have their chance to express their opinions at the AGM, but whatever decision is decided upon, people should accept it, and enjoy their football next year, whichever league you are in. Good luck to all attending the AGM, I have a feeling it could be a long night!!

[Topcat]

Markw it is not misleading to quote their places as in the premiership Man city are in first place and Plymouth are probably in 76th? place regardless of their leagues.

Ballsax no-one is saying that Redruth or Constantine don,t deserve to be promoted after what has been great seasons for both sides. Promote both these clubs and the league is back up to 14 teams without relegating anyone who does,nt deserve to be relegated.

How can you possibly know which sides are better the teams that finished 3rd and 4th in div1 or the teams that finished 11th and 12th in the premier league. However no-one will get a chance to voice their opinions at the AGM as all this will be sorted and no team will know what is happening till the night! For those who attended last years AGM will be aware that Peter Thorne from Wendron was cut rather short from putting his opinion forward and I for one have tried to discuss this topic at an AGm and again it's not allowed, maybe the two teams in 11th and 12th should appeal if they are relegated when the league is already short of two sides?????

[Kash]

Lets just hope common sense prevails! Obviously not everyone will be happy but gona take another season or two for stability! You cant blame the league really for sides dropping out andleaving leagues short, the blames with the folded teams! I think in the prem if the sides that folded hadnt played a single game then I cant see how they can be considered as bottom two? Think they should maybe relegate 1 and put 3 up to boost the league, thats probably the best thing to do!

[Jeff Stelling]

If teams pull out of the league before a ball has even been kicked then why are the teams that finished bottom so surprised that they may be relegated?

Have a look at the league table on the Full Time website, the bottom two teams in each league should be relegated. Regardless of how many teams are in that division.

Obviously if teams pull out during the season then they count as a relegated side.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but I don't understand the confusion?

[Rudders]

If teams pull out of the league before a ball has even been kicked then why are the teams that finished bottom so surprised that they may be relegated?

Have a look at the league table on the Full Time website, the bottom two teams in each league should be relegated. Regardless of how many teams are in that division.

Obviously if teams pull out during the season then they count as a relegated side.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but I don't understand the confusion?

What is said above is blunt but correct. what everyone must take into account is that this was the first season of the Trelawney league and it will take a couple of seasons for teams to find their correct playing level. Two leagues were amalgamated and the standards between leagues may differ slightly but will eventually even out.Relegating the bottom two sides regardless of how many teams are in the leagues and promoting whatever it takes to fill a league above will speed this process up

[le boss]

If teams pull out of the league before a ball has even been kicked then why are the teams that finished bottom so surprised that they may be relegated?

Have a look at the league table on the Full Time website, the bottom two teams in each league should be relegated. Regardless of how many teams are in that division.

Obviously if teams pull out during the season then they count as a relegated side.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but I don't understand the confusion?

EXACTLY !!!!!

[markw]

Kev, there are 20 teams in the premiership not 76.

The process of Relegation/Promotion is the method of sorting which teams should be in each seperate division, It is not a continuous table.

[Phil]

If teams pull out of the league before a ball has even been kicked then why are the teams that finished bottom so surprised that they may be relegated?

Have a look at the league table on the Full Time website, the bottom two teams in each league should be relegated. Regardless of how many teams are in that division.

Obviously if teams pull out during the season then they count as a relegated side.

Sorry if this sounds blunt but I don't understand the confusion?

So Jeff, if 2 teams were relegated from each division regardless of how many were in each division, do you think it is correct to promote 4, 5 or even 6 teams to make the numbers add up?

[Jeff Stelling]

So Jeff, if 2 teams were relegated from each division regardless of how many were in each division, do you think it is correct to promote 4, 5 or even 6 teams to make the numbers add up?

My point is that if you finish in the relegation spots then you go down, regardless of how many may have to come up to fill other places. Otherwise what's the point in any team in the bottom half of a table even bothering once their own promotion hopes are out of the window?

I know the possibility of 6 teams going up seems a lot butit won't be that many every season. The league needs to level itself out and if a side has shown that they are not good enough for the league that they are in then they should go down in my opinion.

[le boss]

I think the issue is that most people take the view that teams should be promoted and relegated from EVERY division EVERY season so that the league retains its credibilty. The problem is somehow brought on by the league because it was not (as far as I am aware) put in black and white how the problems would be sorted as to how many teams get relegated/promoted and what happens when teams withdraw. I think there is a case that if a team withdraws before playing any matches, then they should be disregarded totally - you cannot say that they should be one of the relegated teams because they would have ended up below the team(s) in those positions at the end of the season; who is to say they would not have won the league? Do you deny a promotion applying the same logic?

Think the only argument on the AGM night should be how many teams get relegated/promoted for the coming season - everyone should bite the bullet as teams had to last season and then get it set in stone what should happen from then on.

[Soccer Follower]

What happens if a team that finishes in,say,third or fourth position do not want to be promoted from that league because they feel that they will struggle in a higher league? If they were good enough,they would have finished either first or second.

[le boss]

Then it goes to the next team below them perhaps

[Mangle]

What happens if a team that finishes in,say,third or fourth position do not want to be promoted from that league because they feel that they will struggle in a higher league? If they were good enough,they would have finished either first or second.

Are you allowed to choose whether or not you are promoted?

[le boss]

Not sure if the league has made any provision for such an issue

[Martin Eddy]

this is what has always happened at the mining league agm's in the past.

on some ocassions up to six teams have been promoted because you always fill up the top league and then work down.

[skippy]

What happens if a team that finishes in,say,third or fourth position do not want to be promoted from that league because they feel that they will struggle in a higher league? If they were good enough,they would have finished either first or second.

Are you allowed to choose whether or not you are promoted?

Penryn decided Trelawny Premier was too strong for their 3rd team last season. They ended up in Div 3.

[Magic Mike]

What happens if a team that finishes in,say,third or fourth position do not want to be promoted from that league because they feel that they will struggle in a higher league? If they were good enough,they would have finished either first or second.

Are you allowed to choose whether or not you are promoted?

Penryn decided Trelawny Premier was too strong for their 3rd team last season. They ended up in Div 3.

not quite true

they had 3rd team in The Premier and 4th team in div 3 and folded the 3rd team in the premier

they didnt decide to go into div 3 out of choice!

but that is a whole different matter altogether!!

[Mangle]

Some decisions last year could have been through the setting up of the new league. My question is about an "established" league situation. If you are in a promotion position, and nothing like facilities or another club team in the higher division is going to stop promotion, can a club choose to stay where they are?

[Portreathlegend]

there was rules set out for the league last year, so if it states two up and 2 down, this has to happen, then they look at the situation and decide if changes need to be made, but the rules for the season just gone need to be enforced then look at things after.

its simple really

[skippy]

The North Devon League have set rules, published on their website, which caters for making up a shortfall in numbers. If Trelawny could do something similar it would minimise the disputes. The rules are copied below.

Under League Rules this is presented to the AGM and is not open for alteration at the meeting.

Procedure for determining the league constitution

The procedure used to determine the constitution of the League for the following season is this:

(i) Two up two down is applied to the previous season’s final League tables.

(ii) New applicant teams are provisionally placed in a Division in accordance with precedent; new clubs/teams automatically go into the bottom division, existing teams transferring from another League are placed in the Division thought to be appropriate to their playing strength.

(iii) To determine the number of teams in the League, withdrawals are then deleted from the Divisional lists.

(iv) Should the number of teams then be less than the full complement of 64, the sizes of the Divisions are then determined.

(v) The procedure for filling vacancies is then applied, starting with the Premier Division and working down:

1st Vacancy; the next to bottom team in the higher division is not relegated,

2nd Vacancy; the third team in the lower division is promoted,

3rd Vacancy; the bottom team is not relegated,

4th Vacancy; the fourth team is promoted etc.

[le boss]

sounds like a decent formula

[Fatso]

This looks like an excellent solution but clearly states the order of events as well. I think it would be a suggestion for this to be (at least) considered at the league AGM. If agreed on it would certainly take a huge amount of time and effort out of writing a new constitution from scratch.

Even if this was used as a template and the order of the vacancy filling procedure was changed as per vote on the night?

[Soccer Follower]

Not sure that you can change it on the night..

[Mangle]

The North Devon League have set rules, published on their website, which caters for making up a shortfall in numbers. If Trelawny could do something similar it would minimise the disputes.

Skippy, are you suggesting that we do not have to reinvent the wheel? ;)

[skippy]

The North Devon League have set rules, published on their website, which caters for making up a shortfall in numbers. If Trelawny could do something similar it would minimise the disputes.

Skippy, are you suggesting that we do not have to reinvent the wheel?

A number of posts on the Tony Kempster non-league forum over the last few seasons have commented on how logical and transparent the North Devon promotion and relegation system is. It would suit the Trelawny League well, the only change being the full complement of teams being 98 instead of 64.