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How times have changed at Tottenham Hotspurs North London neighbours!

But for better or worse?

George Graham never went three seasons at Arsenal without winning something?

I remember the days when the Arsenal fans used to say that the pretty football didn't matter, it was all about winning stuff.

Oh, how the times have changed!

Now it seems pretty football does matter, even if you don't win anything.

It must be weird being a Arsenal fan. All the values that you hold dear for years and years end up getting turned the other way round and your forced to pretend you never believed them in the first place!

I remember them moaning about the amount of foreign players Chelsea had about ten years ago. Now look the the Arsenal squad!

I remember them moaning about the fact that Chelsea had a Russian owner who was bankrolling them. Now look at the arsenal board!

I remember them boasting about their 'grade 2 listed stadium' and the traditions of Highbury. Now take a look a look at the corporate empire of the Emirates!

I remember them boasting about solid yet predictable no frills defenders like Adams and Keown. Now just take a look at Gallas!

I remember them boasting about route one football and the long ball to Ian Wright. Now they expect their team to pass it into the net!

There is a word for all this my friends. The word is HYPOCRISY!

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yeah cheers coopsie,

arsenal only 3rd in the league

5 minutes away for champions league semi-final

yeah like you say crap season, sack wenger.

totally not worried about not winning every trophy, but at least arsenal are in the mix to win them,

(i must be easily pleased).

are you happy with one good cup run?

off the pitch whilst i like many arsenal supporters miss highbury times change,

most premier teams are now foreign owned or have foreign backers.

but in your defence can we swap gallas for a fully fit ledley king or woodgate

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yeah cheers coopsie,

arsenal only 3rd in the league

5 minutes away for champions league semi-final

yeah like you say crap season, sack wenger.

totally not worried about not winning every trophy, but at least arsenal are in the mix to win them,

(i must be easily pleased).

are you happy with one good cup run?

off the pitch whilst i like many arsenal supporters miss highbury times change,

most premier teams are now foreign owned or have foreign backers.

but in your defence can we swap gallas for a fully fit ledley king or woodgate

I never once said they have had a crap season Jules mate, neither did I say sack master splinter.. It's just an observation as to how things have turned full circle from winning ugly, to not winning but being happy with pretty football.

Am I happy with one good cup run??.. YES. We also had good cup runs under Jol but no success :( ..

Could you swap Gallas for a fully fit King or Woodgate??. NO... Anyway, I don't think King will ever be fully fit again :unsure: .. You never know Jules, Ramos is all about fitness and IF he decides that King will not be able to maintain the necessary fitness levels, he will release him from his contract. Afterall, why pay a player nearly £3million per season if he can only play a dozen games. Apparantly this season his pay will work out to the equivalent of £200,000 per game.

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are you happy then coopsie with finishing eleventh or possible tenth when last season you were challenging for a champions league spot .

spurs going in the wrong direction i would say ?

Perhaps you would say that sammo 66, but you'd be wrong. The team was in freefall and Jol had to go. He was replaced by Ramos who inherited a team in 17th place in the league, grossly overweight and totally bereft of any confidence.

They are now 11th and have lost over 60kg in total weight, are atleast 30% fitter and as you correctly say, could finish 10th. YES it is a disappointment on the previous two seasons BUT an improvement on where we were when the new coaching team took over.

Add the mickey mouse cup to the higher league position and the first win over both Chelsea and Arsenal for way too many years and the statement "spurs going in the wrong direction" seems totally lacking in any real debateable capacity.

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I followed Arsenal when they played ugly football and won stuff and i still follow them now, yes i'd love them to win stuff, but i have to admit its nice to see them playing better football, be nice if the better football won us stuff too, but how many teams in the prem have gone longer then 3 years without winning anything? If i'm honest i'd rather be ugly and winning stuff then pretty and always coming 2nd, but thats just me :D :drink:

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from fifth to eleventh is not excatly going forward mate .

From 17th to 11th IS going forwards and I'm also pretty sure that to go from winning NOTHING at all to winning a trophy against a totally full strength Chelsea side in the final and totally hammering an Arsenal side in the semi that knocked us out of the same cup at the same stage last season IS also a step FORWARD.

You see, we may have finished 5th in the previous two seasons but we won nothing and only qualified for uefa cup. This season we have climbed from where we were when Ramos took over and we've once again qualified for the uefa cup but this time we've actually won something.

correct me if I'm wrong but to go from winning nothing to winning something, there must be some sort of movement in the right direction?. Judge Ramos at the end of next season when, like jol, he will have had a full pre season and full playing season under his belt. Then see if Spurs are fighting for 10th place.

I followed Arsenal when they played ugly football and won stuff and i still follow them now, yes i'd love them to win stuff, but i have to admit its nice to see them playing better football, be nice if the better football won us stuff too, but how many teams in the prem have gone longer then 3 years without winning anything? If i'm honest i'd rather be ugly and winning stuff then pretty and always coming 2nd, but thats just me :D:drink:

Thankyou Anita sweetheart, you understand what I was getting at. :thumbsup:

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but surely one day you would like to challenge the top four

also if you base sucess on winning things then obviously mr wenger has been very sucessful maybe not recently but overall

and yes you have one a trophy this season but as they say one swallow does not make a summer

good luck for next season

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No argument from me sammo mate, Wenger IS a class act in the world of management and in recent history, Spurs have had nobody that could come close to competing tactically or by way of dieting and exercise regimes etc. However, I think that we MAY have somebody that could atleast be his equal?.

Time will tell mate.

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Some silverwear would be nice, our cabinets are looking a bit bear, so maybe its time we went back to 'Boring, boring, Arsenal' and winning stuff again :D Oh my god i've drank too much, think its time i crawled into my bed :drink:

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Guest Bushranger

How times have changed at Tottenham Hotspurs North London neighbours!

But for better or worse?

George Graham never went three seasons at Arsenal without winning something?

I remember the days when the Arsenal fans used to say that the pretty football didn't matter, it was all about winning stuff.

Oh, how the times have changed!

Now it seems pretty football does matter, even if you don't win anything.

It must be weird being a Arsenal fan. All the values that you hold dear for years and years end up getting turned the other way round and your forced to pretend you never believed them in the first place!

I remember them moaning about the amount of foreign players Chelsea had about ten years ago. Now look the the Arsenal squad!

I remember them moaning about the fact that Chelsea had a Russian owner who was bankrolling them. Now look at the arsenal board!

I remember them boasting about their 'grade 2 listed stadium' and the traditions of Highbury. Now take a look a look at the corporate empire of the Emirates!

I remember them boasting about solid yet predictable no frills defenders like Adams and Keown. Now just take a look at Gallas!

I remember them boasting about route one football and the long ball to Ian Wright. Now they expect their team to pass it into the net!

There is a word for all this my friends. The word is HYPOCRISY!

What exactly is the point of saying that?

Hypocrisy??

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What exactly is the point of saying that?

Hypocrisy??

Well the very definition of hypocrisy is clearly defined within the original post I made Bushranger by way of pointing out that one thing was said in the past but now the exact opposite is what pleases the suporters. However, to make it a bit clearer or more simple for you I will tell you exactly what hypocrisy is and then you wont need to ask me what the point is of saying such things.

HYPOCRISY FOR THE IGNORANT:

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

2. An act or instance of such falseness.

3. The condition of a person pretending to be something he is not, especially in the area of morals or religion; a false presentation of belief or feeling.

Hope that cleared it up for you and it is now CLEAR that "the point of saying that" was because it is 100% relevant to what I wrote.

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As I've said before on various threads, I feel that the optimism from us Spurs fans for next season is based on the fact that in our important games this season, the team, under the new manager appear to have developed a self belief that they are capable of producing at the required level to potentially win trophies and challenge the 'Big Four'.

Also, if you look at Senor Ramos' record in the league so far this season it shows a haul of 39 points from 26 games played. This equates to a 57 point season, which, considering he's a new manager at a club, inherited a squad of players that are not 'his' and has a squad that since the Carling Cup win are blatantly cruising through to the end of season and has nothing left to play for. The previous manager managed 5th in the last two seasons with a points haul of 60 (2006-07) and 65 (2005-06), so I don't quite think it's the dramatic drop off that it appears.

It will be a very busy summer at Spurs, and a very important one, but nonetheless I will be there this Sunday to show my thanks for the trophy that has been won for the club and extremely entertaining (not always the right way!) stuff that has been served up at the Lane this season.

With regards to our South London neighbours, Arsenal, what they do with themselves doesn't really concern me a great deal. but everyone else loves to talk about them so I might as well!

I have to say they have surprised me this season with their performance because at the start of the season I would have had them in a mad scramble for 4th spot, but they are comfortably 3rd and I think their fans should be over the moon with it.

However, I think that this is a massive summer for Monsieur Wenger because unless he removes his blind spot regarding his 'young' team and signs some players that are 'finished articles', then I think they will go no higher, and in fact will be probably go backwards (with Liverpool overtaking them) because quite frankly the squad they have at the moment is not good enough to win titles or Champions Leagues (and I said that when they were 6 points clear in Feb and had just beaten Milan), but I'm always wary of predicting Arsenal's demise because everytime I do, they go and pull a rabbit out the hat and move on to bigger and better things, so I'm just gonna keep quiet (as much as I can!!!) and quietly hope that in a few seasons time I look back on the summer of 2008 as the beginning of a power shift in North London (Wait for Arsenal to sign Kaka, Messi & Ronaldo now I've said that! :rolleyes: )

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Does anyone actually believe that the top four will be challenged in the next few years?????

Everytime someone does come close, or has a freak season when one team finishes in the top four (that wear blue), the next season is a different story!

In my opinion Spurs are playing in a league in which, realistically, their aim has to be 5th place. It would take years of DECENT investment, and lifestyle changes within the club to entertain the thought of a top four finish, especially for more than one season.

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rawa.I can remember Spurs winning the league and Cup double.

Have supported them for nearly 50 years,through all the ups and downs.

Ar5ena1 have won nothing before Spurs.

League Championship.League and Cup Double,European Trophy all won first by Spurs.

As predicted on previous posts.Arsenal are in debt,and will always sell.

Flamini is only the first to go.

If you fail to ever qualify for Champions League.

A financial disaster opens up.

Spurs are going in the right direction.What we achieve is still to be seen.

I will also be there on Sunday,to give my positive reaction to the RAMOS REVOLUTION.

Arsenal beware.

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Anita, Tottenham first league Championship was in 1899-1900.

It was the Southern League in those days.

Were Ar5ena1 in that league then ?

If they won it before then.My apologies.

The facts are ,you Gooners dismiss Spurs as 2nd best.

Carry on winning nothing,losing top quality players.

Sooner or later the tide will turn in North London.

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Anita, Tottenham first league Championship was in 1899-1900.

It was the Southern League in those days.

Were Ar5ena1 in that league then ?

If they won it before then.My apologies.

The facts are ,you Gooners dismiss Spurs as 2nd best.

Carry on winning nothing,losing top quality players.

Sooner or later the tide will turn in North London.

and how many years have spurs fans said that

top four might change positions next season but it will be the same four

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Read my thread Sammo.

I didnt mention finishing positions in the league.

The thread said ,carry on winning nothing and sell your top players,

and the tide will turn.

If you think finishing in the top 4,and winning nothing is success,

carry on being successful.

Let Spurs pick up the trophies,and were all happy.

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but surely one day you would like to challenge the top four

also if you base sucess on winning things then obviously mr wenger has been very sucessful maybe not recently but overall

and yes you have one a trophy this season but as they say one swallow does not make a summer

good luck for next season

i think i said it all in this post

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Guest postman pat

the longer the top 4 stay in these positions the harder it will be for any other club to challenge as they are just being bankrolled every year and the gap will just get bigger and bigger :SM_carton: this will make the premiership the same as scotland were everyone knows its celtic or rangers :angry2: if this carries on the money men will lose interest at sky and setanta and look elsewhere.

look whats happening in india with twenty twenty cricket,is this the next big thing :glare:

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Anita, Tottenham first league Championship was in 1899-1900.

It was the Southern League in those days.

Were Ar5ena1 in that league then ?

If they won it before then.My apologies.

The facts are ,you Gooners dismiss Spurs as 2nd best.

Carry on winning nothing,losing top quality players.

Sooner or later the tide will turn in North London.

Sorry somersetspur, i ment when the leagues became one. (think thats right :drink: )

Aston Villa and Sunderland dominated the early years of the game, but after a few years other northern clubs began to catch up, with the likes of Newcastle United and Manchester United joining the League and having success. Liverpool won the first of their record 18 League titles in 1901. It was not until the early years of the 20th century that southern clubs such as Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur established themselves in the League, and there would be a further wait until 1931 before a southern club, Arsenal, would win the League for the first time.

Hope that makes it clearer what 'league' i';m on about (sorry if i make no sence been drinking all day) :smiley20:

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Not true Rawa, the average football fan in proffessional circles is 43. I suspect there are many who know about Bill Brown, Maurice Norman, John White and co.

1961 was when Spurs last won the league ( twice only in the proper format ).

So thats 47 years. Proves the original theory right.

Flamini wasn't sold by the way. Left on free because he will get large amount of signing on fee. Good player but can be replaced. Never been dissapointed by any players Wenger let go. None have really gone on to better things.

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Flamini left,true,to better his chances of winning a trophy.

Fact is,Wenger has been quoted as saying he has been gutted by the way

the Ar5ena1 board would not offer Flamini more than thier wage cap of

55,000 pounds a week.He finally agreed a deal elsewhere for 60,000.

Compared to average premiership wages he wasnt asking for much

more was he.

As I keep saying,due to Ar5ena1s debt,they have to keep a very tight budget.

Thats why Wenger cannot spend big money on 2-3 top quality players,to turn

his so called super squad into a Championship winning outfit.

Ar5ena1s target every season is Champions League qualification,for financial reasons.DEBT.

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Flamini left,true,to better his chances of winning a trophy.

Fact is,Wenger has been quoted as saying he has been gutted by the way

the Ar5ena1 board would not offer Flamini more than thier wage cap of

55,000 pounds a week.He finally agreed a deal elsewhere for 60,000.

Compared to average premiership wages he wasnt asking for much

more was he.

As I keep saying,due to Ar5ena1s debt,they have to keep a very tight budget.

Thats why Wenger cannot spend big money on 2-3 top quality players,to turn

his so called super squad into a Championship winning outfit.

Ar5ena1s target every season is Champions League qualification,for financial reasons.DEBT.

Don't quote stuff that isnt right. You think arsenals top wage is 55k? Very wrong. The structure changed for that 5 years ago with Bergkamp.

Flamini was offered that ammount, but he got a reported 2-3 million signing on fee. going to a club that scraped in 4th in Serie A has to qualify for champions league, isn't going to guarantee success. If hleb goes, doesnt bother me, he's not got end product often enough.

And debt, show me a club who isn't. Manchester United are over 600million in debt. Wenger can spend big money if he likes, but he doesn't want to and want spend stupid money on second rate english players, like spurs continually do.

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And debt, show me a club who isn't. Manchester United are over 600million in debt. Wenger can spend big money if he likes, but he doesn't want to and want spend stupid money on second rate english players, like spurs continually do.

Spurs have NO DEBT WHATSOEVER and I think you'll see that the purchasing of any "second rate English players" will cease now that we have a PROPER manager in charge. Also, I assume that the second rate English player you're referring to is Darren Bent?. Well IF he is kept on by Ramos and given more playing time when Berbastrop has gone, I think you'll see him scoring the goals that he was purchased for. You must remember that the lad was the TOP SCORING English striker for two consecutive seasons whilst at Charlton and you don't become a bad player overnight.

ALL footballers, especially strikers need playing time and goals to build up any confidence and any level of consistency.

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Not to be rude to the coopster but bent is awful when he was top scorer for charlton all his goals were penalties

You gota admit you paid around 15million too much for him

How on earth can any Premiership footballer with international caps to his name be described as "awful"?. YES the price was excessive BUT that is not the lads fault is it. He chose to earn almost 50% less money at Tottenham because of ambition rather than take a fat cheque every week from West Ham. This in the modern day pro is a VERY rare trait to posess and i for one applaud him for that.

You're wrong about about "all his goals coming from penalty's" aswell because most of his goals came by way of the ball being played behind the defence and his pace would do the rest. He still had to take his chances and on the whole, he did this. I seriously don't think he was called into the England squad because he can take a penalty and I'm sure you don't believe that either?.

Seriously, look at his stats on wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Bent ) and you'll see that his record is certainly not "awful". Maybe Spurs should have splashed out £30million on Shevchenko or £18million on Veron or something then everybody would be happier.

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Guest Sullivan

You support a team not just because you want to see them win everything but because you have a connection and a love for that club.

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Interesting read (if the link works) back to the beginning of this season when we all debated whether Arsenal would "implode" or not.

http://www.cornwallfootballforum.com/forum...=1686&st=75

See who got it right and who got it wrong!!

Well done to Coopsie, I think the only Spurs fan who did not predict that Spurs would finish above Arsenal, although his constant remarks about Wenger moving on did not materialise!! And Darren Bent has been a fairly expensive bench warmer this year (I know I know - Ramos didn't buy him so don't judge until after next season.....).

UP THE GUNNERS

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Interesting read (if the link works) back to the beginning of this season when we all debated whether Arsenal would "implode" or not.

http://www.cornwallfootballforum.com/forum...=1686&st=75

See who got it right and who got it wrong!!

Well done to Coopsie, I think the only Spurs fan who did not predict that Spurs would finish above Arsenal, although his constant remarks about Wenger moving on did not materialise!! And Darren Bent has been a fairly expensive bench warmer this year (I know I know - Ramos didn't buy him so don't judge until after next season.....).

UP THE GUNNERS

God I love you Mangle, A Gooner with a brain and the ability to debate with common sense and reasoning. :thumbsup:

Tell you what, read what I put in that post and it wasn't too far off the mark was it?. I'll just put it below this so you can see. Although I was somewhat wide of the mark with Torres :unsure:

"i'm a yid fan and think i'm the only person that has not said that spurs WILL finish above the goons.as many have said,it is wenger that is important to the goons and if he's still there then there's no reason to believe that they wont be able to atleast match last seasons 4th place finish.

Liverpool will not win the league and i don't think chelsea will either.man utd are the best TEAM in the country by a long way and for that reason i think that they will secure atleast the premiership.

Spurs have spent a fair amount of money but we have got in 4 players for the same as liverpool have paid for 1 player BUT unless we get a ball winning playmaker in the midfield,quality left winger and good centre back for when ledley is injured,we wont be breaking into the top 4.

i think that Everton could get in there and the top 6 (after man utd,chelsea,liverpool and arsenal) could have any one of portsmouth,blackburn,west ham,man city,newcastle and spurs all fighting it out for a couple of spots in europe.

people will probably laugh at the thought of man city being up there but they must remember that although sven never won anything with England,he has won the league and cup double at EVERY club he's managed and he only lost 4 or 5 competitive games whilst in charge of England.it should be a great season and as cockerkneeboy said "nothing is decided until the fat lady sings..

lets just stop speculating and see what the season throws at us and enjoy it as much as possible.anyway,i have a bad feeling that sunderland are going to doink spurs on the first day of the season".

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Guest Helston Patriot

Surely success is based upon actually winning something?.

**** me, spurs win 1 cup since the Romans occupied Britian and coopsie gets keyboard diarrhoea! :P

I remember a number of statemants at the start of the season claiming spurs would finally finish above the Gunners in 4th (not coopsie i may add!)... I prefer the saying "Time will tell". Time DID tell. Just like time will tell about the current situation at Arsenal. Congratulations to Spurs for winning the Carling Cup, But Arsenal are still the best team in north london me old china!

I'll let you off in the dreamteam league, Thats the only way Spurs will be above Arsenal at the end of season!! Love you Stu :c:

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