Football is dying in Cornwall

[THEMAGPIE]

As my title states I believe football is on a serious downward spiral in Cornwall, with recently watching numerous games across the Combination and Trelawney Leagues at this early part of the season all I can say is it’s now become a serious situation, players dual signing is absolutely farcical, watching players playing for numerous Clubs across various leagues with some teams at super strength midweek and then hardly scraping a team together for a Saturday! I honestly believe the dual signing rule has been seriously detrimental to the lower leagues, imagine being a player in a squad having to sit out certain games because some players from higher divisions become available for a few midweek fixtures?, the standard of the Combination league is now at an end, just get rid of it and merge with the Trelawney league, some of the game’s I’ve seen are honestly no different than Trelawney 1/Prem, reduce the amount of Trelawney leagues to get a decent competition amongst the teams competing, the division 4 is an absolute waste of time just merge all the leagues to stop dilution.

Cornwall Fa must act on this sooner rather than later as it’s getting worse by the season!

[bighairydave]

14 hours ago, THEMAGPIE said:

As my title states I believe football is on a serious downward spiral in Cornwall, with recently watching numerous games across the Combination and Trelawney Leagues at this early part of the season all I can say is it’s now become a serious situation, players dual signing is absolutely farcical, watching players playing for numerous Clubs across various leagues with some teams at super strength midweek and then hardly scraping a team together for a Saturday! I honestly believe the dual signing rule has been seriously detrimental to the lower leagues, imagine being a player in a squad having to sit out certain games because some players from higher divisions become available for a few midweek fixtures?, the standard of the Combination league is now at an end, just get rid of it and merge with the Trelawney league, some of the game’s I’ve seen are honestly no different than Trelawney 1/Prem, reduce the amount of Trelawney leagues to get a decent competition amongst the teams competing, the division 4 is an absolute waste of time just merge all the leagues to stop dilution.

Cornwall Fa must act on this sooner rather than later as it’s getting worse by the season!

Dual signings across the grassroots game could be gone next season with the amalgamation of the leagues together to make one league with East and West divisions.

[Footy Detective]

Wasn’t it the Bosman high court judgement from many years ago that is still in place and basically says that players have the right to dual sign as long as the club is not is the same league ? 
BHD is right in saying that help is on hand in the form of amalgamation into one league next year hopefully ? As for dual signing that as I understand , is here to stay unless of course there is another high court case, I could be wrong and perhaps other more knowledgeable people could clarify ? Perhaps it has nothing to do with the Bosman ruling at all .

But is it not perhaps also the case of a shrinking World population ( evident in the shear number of job vacancies ) and there are simply not enough players available or interested in playing ?

[Dave Deacon]

Is the new league going to be what is now the Combo, ECPL, Duchy and Trelawny?

Presumably an East and West set-up run under the control of the Cornwall FA? 

[supportcornishfootball]

Couldn’t agree more. Watching the football in Cornwall over the years the standard I believe has gone down when it should be going up. Dual signing is a horrendous thing for football and clubs, the lack of loyalty is everywhere now. Players go where the money is. Also there’s too much of a focus on youth, youth youth youth, I always believe if your young enough your good enough, but ALOT of the youngsters I’ve watched this season especially are not. Loyal experienced players are being forced out of clubs for the promotion and obsession with youth. And this young crop of teenagers don’t appear to have the values, ethics, loyalty or desire as experienced  players. This isn’t the premier league, it’s Cornwall football and careers can continue well into 30’s. I believe each team needs a good mix, we’ve been blessed with some great players over the years but I just don’t see it now. Every season the merry go round continues and the same players hop from team to team following a cheque. 

[Footy Detective]

Well I said it years ago Keith that youngster’s prefer to watch a match on the big screen whilst quaffing copious amounts of larger instead of actually playing and the even younger generation can indulge in their wildest fantasies linked online via playstations etc.

There are numerous variables that all come together but there is no doubt as Themagpie as stated that grassroots football not only in Cornwall is dying 😞

[6times]

Totally agree however these managers need looking at ,as they do not have to play these higer dual registered players at the expense of their own lads, I know I’d walk from a club  if I was commited and left out on a Wednesday cause some random was put in,  some would  then say I’m not loyal!!  goes both ways 🤷‍♂️

[THEMAGPIE]

1 hour ago, Keith B said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head Magpie. 

Doesn't alter the essence of TheMagpies post FD. The soul of amateur football has gone and I lament that. 

Keith I watched recently your Tinners take on a Rosudgeon team midweek which consisted of numerous players from other Clubs many of which were not playing in another regular Rosudgeon fixture I witnessed so does that make for a level playing field or a sustainable future, then I watched Penzance reserves play St Buryan in which St Buryan had numerous Pendeen Combination players playing for them! Come the regular Saturday fixtures and neither Rosudgeon or St Buryan will have these players available and will inevitably then be struggling again! It just seems madness to me!

[Steve Carpenter]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

Is the new league going to be what is now the Combo, ECPL, Duchy and Trelawny?

Presumably an East and West set-up run under the control of the Cornwall FA? 

The aim Dave is for one league covering the whole county but with a structure not too dissimilar to what we have now,  There are a number of benefits in this not least of which would be that players would only be able to sign for a maximum of 2 clubs in the county, one in the new 'County League' and one in the new Step5/6 structure, as opposed to the 7 that they could now - and some do.  The St Piran, Combination and Trelawny Leagues are on board for this to happen and there is a meeting with the clubs from the ECPL and Duchy on Monday.  The ambition is for everything to be in place for this to happen from the start of next season. 

[MattP]

Agree, but there will also be clubs relying on dual signings to survive. Once the “one player one club” rule comes in, could we see the more attractive/sucessful/“rich” clubs with 5 subs and others unable to field sides? Clubs will need reserve teams to bolster their first teams so that might, in turn, see these smaller “one team” clubs disappear? These reserve teams could frequently be unable to field teams themselves due to first team call ups, so we need to be careful what we wish for here. 
We need to remember that there are real grass roots, village clubs in this county, at a level far away from those clubs able to attract players by giving away their hard earned funds….
 

[Richard Chown]

24 minutes ago, MattP said:

Agree, but there will also be clubs relying on dual signings to survive. Once the “one player one club” rule comes in, could we see the more attractive/sucessful/“rich” clubs with 5 subs and others unable to field sides? Clubs will need reserve teams to bolster their first teams so that might, in turn, see these smaller “one team” clubs disappear? These reserve teams could frequently be unable to field teams themselves due to first team call ups, so we need to be careful what we wish for here. 
We need to remember that there are real grass roots, village clubs in this county, at a level far away from those clubs able to attract players by giving away their hard earned funds….
 

You just have to look at what has happened to Cornish cricket. 

[6times]

22 minutes ago, MattP said:

Agree, but there will also be clubs relying on dual signings to survive. Once the “one player one club” rule comes in, could we see the more attractive/sucessful/“rich” clubs with 5 subs and others unable to field sides? Clubs will need reserve teams to bolster their first teams so that might, in turn, see these smaller “one team” clubs disappear? These reserve teams could frequently be unable to field teams themselves due to first team call ups, so we need to be careful what we wish for here. 
We need to remember that there are real grass roots, village clubs in this county, at a level far away from those clubs able to attract players by giving away their hard earned funds….
 

Sounds harsh but let’s hope so , these smaller 1 team pop up clubs with no land/facilities are a huge problem as players then don’t have to show commitment as there’s always somewhere to play ( too many teams too many leagues) also will help out the( I struggle for another word )proper football CLUBS  with players, cash behind the bars and helping them survive and thrive .for me I’d like to see at least 3 leagues scrapped throughout the county whether  that be 1 in peninsular,st pirans, combo , trelwalney, ecpl, or east junior version of trelawney I don’t know but for the good of football standards and health of clubs something gotta give . 

[THEMAGPIE]

Cap the amount of players per Club and stop the dual sign situation, there will inevitably be some casualties but I believe it would be better in the long run, and to be honest there’s too many Clubs anyway 

[Dave Deacon]

18 minutes ago, THEMAGPIE said:

stop the dual sign situation,

That’s just it you can’t! Freedom of movement/choice or whatever! 

1 hour ago, Steve Carpenter said:

The aim Dave is for one league covering the whole county but with a structure not too dissimilar to what we have now,  There are a number of benefits in this not least of which would be that players would only be able to sign for a maximum of 2 clubs in the county, one in the new 'County League' and one in the new Step5/6 structure, as opposed to the 7 that they could now - and some do.  The St Piran, Combination and Trelawny Leagues are on board for this to happen and there is a meeting with the clubs from the ECPL and Duchy on Monday.  The ambition is for everything to be in place for this to happen from the start of next season. 

I realise it’s been a goal of within County Hq to have a one league system for Step 7 down for a little while now.

With it seemingly closer to actually happening now, will the set-up be run by Cornwall FA officials or will the current various league committees and officers be expected to continue?

[THEMAGPIE]

8 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

That’s just it you can’t! Freedom of movement/choice or whatever! 

I realise it’s been a goal of within County Hq to have a one league system for Step 7 down for a little while now.

With it seemingly closer to actually happening now, will the set-up be run by Cornwall FA officials or will the current various league committees and officers be expected to continue?

Of course you can! 
players are free to transfer as normal (maybe capped at 2 per season) and lose the dual sign situation, players make a commitment then to a Club and on the flip side each Club can sign a set number of players per team! 
will then eradicate this scenario of a team having 40+ players signed on.

Just now, THEMAGPIE said:

Of course you can! 
players are free to transfer as normal (maybe capped at 2 per season) and lose the dual sign situation, players make a commitment then to a Club and on the flip side each Club can sign a set number of players per team! 
will then eradicate this scenario of a team having 40+ players signed on.

Or have a fixed number of “transfer windows” per season which will allow player movement? 
this then may encourage players to start thinking longer term about the Club they want to sign for.

[bighairydave]

3 hours ago, Dave Deacon said:

Is the new league going to be what is now the Combo, ECPL, Duchy and Trelawny?

Presumably an East and West set-up run under the control of the Cornwall FA? 

Not under the control totally of the Cornwall FA, but it is proposed to be administered by the current mix of officials across the St Piran league plus the 4 other league.

At the same time a similar initiative is being proposed for the two Youth leagues as well.

[Steve Carpenter]

10 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

I realise it’s been a goal of within County Hq to have a one league system for Step 7 down for a little while now.

With it seemingly closer to actually happening now, will the set-up be run by Cornwall FA officials or will the current various league committees and officers be expected to continue?

It will NOT be run by Cornwall FA Dave.  Those volunteers, who are again shrinking quickly in numbers, who wish to remain involved to run the league will be given the opportunity to do so.  It would be foolish to lose all those years of experience if the individuals want to stay.

 

On the dual registration situation, the stance of FA legal has always been that unless you are a contracted player then you can register for as many clubs as you like, but obviously not in the same league.

[THEMAGPIE]

4 minutes ago, Steve Carpenter said:

It will NOT be run by Cornwall FA Dave.  Those volunteers, who are again shrinking quickly in numbers, who wish to remain involved to run the league will be given the opportunity to do so.  It would be foolish to lose all those years of experience if the individuals want to stay.

 

On the dual registration situation, the stance of FA legal has always been that unless you are a contracted player then you can register for as many clubs as you like, but obviously not in the same league.

Then I digress and the FA need to act bolstered by a plea from County Fa!

[Dave Deacon]

35 minutes ago, THEMAGPIE said:

Of course you can! 

If it's so easy as that, why hasn't it been done?

[Steve Carpenter]

3 minutes ago, Box 2 Box said:

So will this be one step 7 league ? No combo no Trelawny? With the new step 5/6 league How will the league “gap” between reserves and 1st teams work?

No.  Only the top east and west divisions will have NLS Regional Feeder League status.  There would be no Combo or Trelawny it would all be the 'Cornwall League' for want of a better title but those historic name could possibly be retained as divisional names.

There would be no change to the reserve and first team situation from the existing set up.  As I'm sure you know there must be a 2 Step gap between a first and reserve team in the NLS with reserve teams only allowed at Step 6 but that wouldn't apply in the 'Cornwall League'.

[Dave Deacon]

28 minutes ago, THEMAGPIE said:

Then I digress and the FA need to act bolstered by a plea from County Fa!

Is it worth worrying about now with all the restructuring going on? It won't be so much an issue as it has been.

[Steve Carpenter]

1 minute ago, Dave Deacon said:

Is it worth worrying about now with all the restructuring going on? It won't be so much an issue as it has been.

No Dave it's not.  It's been tried more than once through the correct channels and the answer's always been the same.

[Dave Deacon]

36 minutes ago, Steve Carpenter said:

No.  Only the top east and west divisions will have NLS Regional Feeder League status.  There would be no Combo or Trelawny it would all be the 'Cornwall League' for want of a better title but those historic name could possibly be retained as divisional names.

There would be no change to the reserve and first team situation from the existing set up.  As I'm sure you know there must be a 2 Step gap between a first and reserve team in the NLS with reserve teams only allowed at Step 6 but that wouldn't apply in the 'Cornwall League'.

What's the actual reason for the restructure? I can see the reasoning behind the Western and SWPL getting together for costs of travelling and the like, but what's the real need to join the others (SPL, CCL, ECPL, Duchy & Trelawny) together?

[Martin Eddy]

24 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

What's the actual reason for the restructure? I can see the reasoning behind the Western and SWPL getting together for costs of travelling and the like, but what's the real need to join the others (SPL, CCL, ECPL, Duchy & Trelawny) together?

Could it be the loss of volunteers to run so many leagues as they get older. ?

[Dave Deacon]

13 minutes ago, Postman Pat said:

Could it be the loss of volunteers to run so many leagues as they get older. ?

Steve's already said above "it will NOT be run by Cornwall FA. Those volunteers, who are again shrinking quickly in numbers, who wish to remain involved to run the league will be given the opportunity to do so."

Which actually leads onto another question - what happens if there aren't enough volunteers?

[THEMAGPIE]

3 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Steve's already said above "it will NOT be run by Cornwall FA. Those volunteers, who are again shrinking quickly in numbers, who wish to remain involved to run the league will be given the opportunity to do so."

Which actually leads onto another question - what happens if there aren't enough volunteers?

Why not get ALL clubs to nominate a league committee representative for the duration of their tenure within the league? No arguments on any rules etc as they're the ones making them!

[Steve Carpenter]

34 minutes ago, THEMAGPIE said:

Why not get ALL clubs to nominate a league committee representative for the duration of their tenure within the league? No arguments on any rules etc as they're the ones making them!

Within St Piran we already have 2 club reps from each division.  I would envisage a similar arrangement in the new league structure.

[Dave Deacon]

32 minutes ago, Steve Carpenter said:

Within St Piran we already have 2 club reps from each division.  I would envisage a similar arrangement in the new league structure.

Bearing in mind first and foremost the club reps’ primary roles are naturally  for their respective clubs, to what extent are they be expected to get involved when it comes to league matters? 

[THEMAGPIE]

46 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Bearing in mind first and foremost the club reps’ primary roles are naturally  for their respective clubs, to what extent are they be expected to get involved when it comes to league matters? 

If there was a representative from each member Club and every major decision decided in a democratic manner then surely the majority decision would be the logical outcome in most circumstances, it would create more active involvement from Clubs rather than the same people carrying all the workload’s season after season 

Just now, THEMAGPIE said:

If there was a representative from each member Club and every major decision decided in a democratic manner then surely the majority decision would be the logical outcome in most circumstances, it would create more active involvement from Clubs rather than the same people carrying all the workload’s season after season 

Clubs are quick enough to moan and criticise but this way they would ALL be overseeing the Competition they compete in!

[Steve Carpenter]

1 hour ago, THEMAGPIE said:

If there was a representative from each member Club and every major decision decided in a democratic manner then surely the majority decision would be the logical outcome in most circumstances, it would create more active involvement from Clubs rather than the same people carrying all the workload’s season after season 

Clubs are quick enough to moan and criticise but this way they would ALL be overseeing the Competition they compete in!

Unless I've misunderstood, are you suggesting a committee place for each club? Purely on numbers that would not be practical I'm afraid.  The vast majority of decisions are prescriptive within the Standard Code of Rules and generally speaking its only the fine level or the option (where one exists and there aren't many) to be taken.  The clubs are able to vote on any local rules introduced so have a say there.  It is however important to get a club perspective when looking at any options that may be available and that's where the club reps input is valuable.

[Martin Eddy]

What about ground grading below St. Piran Steve. Heard you say about new teams joining St. Piran will have a minimum size pitch. Will the old Combo, ECLP ground grading still stand please

[Steve Carpenter]

13 hours ago, Postman Pat said:

What about ground grading below St. Piran Steve. Heard you say about new teams joining St. Piran will have a minimum size pitch. Will the old Combo, ECLP ground grading still stand please

The pitch size issue is a proposed change to the annex to NLS regulations which covers feeder leagues.  I haven't seen this seasons regs yet but essentially the change was to align 3g and grass pitch sizes.  Current clubs would have 'grandfather rights'.

There is no official ground grading below NLS Feeder League level but leagues can put in reasonable basic standard requirements such as changing rooms and showers. 

[Richard Chown]

1 hour ago, Steve Carpenter said:

The pitch size issue is a proposed change to the annex to NLS regulations which covers feeder leagues.  I haven't seen this season regs yet but essentially the change was t align 3g and grass pitch sizes.  Current clubs would have 'grandfather rights'.

There is no official ground grading below NLS Feeder League level but leagues can put in reasonable basic standard requirements such as changing rooms and showers. 

Let’s be honest Steve, the St Pirans league is the same standard now as as the old Combo League. (Combo now being Trelawny Premier standard) following the change in Steps. Why are grounds gradings in place that cost clubs £xx,000’s to upgrade whilst some clubs play on council and college pitches? 

[Steve Carpenter]

6 hours ago, Richard Chown said:

Let’s be honest Steve, the St Pirans league is the same standard now as as the old Combo League. (Combo now being Trelawny Premier standard) following the change in Steps. Why are grounds gradings in place that cost clubs £,000’s to upgrade whilst some clubs play on council and college pitches? 

Ground grading at St Piran level is a FA requirement and we have no control over that.  They don't allow dispensations but there are grants available albeit with a match funding element from the clubs.  The role of the NLS Feeder League's is to prepare, on and off the pitch, clubs for the NLS whilst accepting that many will be happy at that level and only a few may wish to progress.  Grading is a part of that process and puts in place the foundations for the Grade G and H requirements for Step 6 for which even larger grants are available.

All urrent St Piran clubs meet the grading requirements for feeder league level.  Any clubs playing on council or college pitches looking to get promoted to St Piran and that needed work doing would obviously have to work with their landlord but it can be done.  Redruth United would be a prime example of what can be achieved when working with the council.  College's may be a bit trickier but if those facilities meet the criteria I suspect the clubs using them are paying a premium for the privilege.

Funding is available at all levels and Dan Greenough and his team at County are excellent at identifying pots that can be tapped into.  Is some hard work on the clubs behalf necessary? Yes of course it is, but the money to improve facilities is there if the time and effort is put in.

[Ian Pethick]

On 02/09/2022 at 15:44, Box 2 Box said:

Do we have too many clubs , with too few players, volunteers and officials ?

Just think about West Cornwall alone 12 + clubs some with multiple adult teams .. 

players registered here there and everywhere 

surely any restructure  should look at the viability of so many clubs ?
 

 

 

 

 

Valid point Box 2 Box, there just aren't the players anymore. Multitude of reasons, many complex, some straightforward, yet all discussed at length on this site before.

For me, the golden age (if it ever existed) of Cornish football in terms of mass participation and strength in depth through multiple leagues, has gone. You could say though that in terms of progressive clubs off and on the pitch whether at step 5 (or aspiring to be this, or even higher), the picture looks really good.

Would be interesting to see how step 7 or lower football is fairing in the rest of the country, suspect the story will be similar. 

[Martin Eddy]

On 02/09/2022 at 23:33, Steve Carpenter said:

The pitch size issue is a proposed change to the annex to NLS regulations which covers feeder leagues.  I haven't seen this seasons regs yet but essentially the change was to align 3g and grass pitch sizes.  Current clubs would have 'grandfather rights'.

There is no official ground grading below NLS Feeder League level but leagues can put in reasonable basic standard requirements such as changing rooms and showers. 

With these grandfather rights, would that allow or stop a club from being promoted from St. Pirans League Steve

[fenman]

Similar situation up here in in lower level  ( Duchy , Trelawney level )Norfolk Way of .Team with a successful history are folding . Many players can't or won't travel to away games causing loss of points for calling off or forfeiting a cup tie .A problem for the future will ( I think ) be a lack off volunteers with the ability to run a club .

[Steve Carpenter]

36 minutes ago, Postman Pat said:

With these grandfather rights, would that allow or stop a club from being promoted from St. Pirans League Steve

Don't know at the moment I'm afraid.  Still waiting on this seasons NLS regs and ground grading documents.

[Martin Eddy]

3 minutes ago, Steve Carpenter said:

Don't know at the moment I'm afraid.  Still waiting on this seasons NLS regs and ground grading documents.

Thanks Steve think I'm right in saying Illogans pitch is not big enough, everything else is fine. Its a ground that ticks all other boxes and has entertained League clubs in the past.

To my way of thinking it's stopping the club from progressing as opposed to encouraging them.

Don't even know if the club wants to progress because there are a lot of other things to take account of. Seems to me that the FA are putting hoops for clubs to jump through for no reason.

I appreciate that you have to be careful what you say.

 

 

[John Mead]

4 minutes ago, Steve Carpenter said:

Don't know at the moment I'm afraid.  Still waiting on this seasons NLS regs and ground grading documents.

There has been a whisper about a future review of Ground Grading requirements but - as there have been no published changes and the season has already started - the assumption is that things will remain the same for the next round of promotions within the NLS and it's Feeder Leagues.

The time will come when there are no clubs with adequate facilities to be promoted.

[Dave Deacon]

12 minutes ago, Postman Pat said:

Thanks Steve think I'm right in saying Illogans pitch is not big enough

Is it the same for St Day - they would have needed to lengthen their pitch if they had finished in the SPL West top two?

[Martin Eddy]

Think they have or are addressing that situation Dave. They asked for quotes earlier in the year from contractors.

Used Illogan as an example because they have a grandstand.

 

[Ian Pethick]

10 hours ago, fenman said:

Similar situation up here in in lower level  ( Duchy , Trelawney level )Norfolk Way of .Team with a successful history are folding . Many players can't or won't travel to away games causing loss of points for calling off or forfeiting a cup tie .A problem for the future will ( I think ) be a lack off volunteers with the ability to run a club .

Round my way (East London), step 6 and 7 football is in rapid decline (many factors, the biggest one being lack of grounds because of eye watering property prices), but Saturday/Sunday park football is booming. Many reasons i guess, sheer population and lower average age of it.  London Borough Of Hackney has a population of nearly 300k and an average age of 33, versus Cornwalls average of 44.

Also several midweek leagues still going strong (have watched one or two in the local Turkish league, the games are very competitive, can get some partisan crowds watching and the tackling can be brutal). I work for Transport For London, their "in house" football league has 2 divisions of 10 teams each and plays on Wednesday afternoons. Some serious players and teams involved.

[fenman]

Sunday league football up here is now reduced to one league , a few years ago there were 5 .Saturday  leagues are slowly reducing , looking on the Full Time site I see many players in their 40's still playing , there are very few young players , some of those that are playing although keen , are not very good .

However there are a number of teams playing mid week evening games on the artificial pitches  , but they arn't strictly speaking clubs , they're groups of workmates . I suppose this gets round the modern 7 day working week in the retail industry which prevents them from playing on Saturdays .

Digressing a bit  the mid week leagues made up of works teams have dissapeared . We used to have a Thursday league in the Norwich / Yarmouth area and a Wednesday league in the Kings Lynn / Wisbech area . The Thursday league had several Post Office , Police , Fire Brigade , Hospital  , Military  and business teams  all gone now . I would think that the Plymouth area must have had the same .

I've given up looking for swallows Older  they're as rare as rainwater up here , the piches on the Eastern side of the county are rock hard and bare .