League restructuring imminent.

[Keyberrygull]

  Has anyone else been led to believe league restructuring is imminent and the Western League will be enlarged, in the same way as the Southern League was a few years ago, resulting two divisions at the same level in the non-league pyramid.  Western league Central and Western league West?

   It would require (2x18) 36 teams minimum to get off the ground but surely this is achievable if SW clubs step up to the plate, and sides who have defected to the Hellenic league can be lured back.

  Pie in the sky or could it be true?       

[silly billy]

10 minutes ago, Keyberrygull said:

  Has anyone else been led to believe league restructuring is imminent and the Western League will be enlarged, in the same way as the Southern League was a few years ago, resulting two divisions at the same level in the non-league pyramid.  Western league Central and Western league West?

   It would require (2x18) 36 teams minimum to get off the ground but surely this is achievable if SW clubs step up to the plate, and sides who have defected to the Hellenic league can be lured back.

  Pie in the sky or could it be true?       

It was mentioned on Dave's podcast with Phil Hiscox. Worth listening to. If in doubt, check it out.......

[Keyberrygull]

  There was talk of a European super league but that never happened...

 Can anyone on here see it materialising? 

[silly billy]

28 minutes ago, Keyberrygull said:

  There was talk of a European super league but that never happened...

 Can anyone on here see it materialising? 

No

[Footy follower]

I've got a great name for the new western league West......" South west peninsula league." .... Sounds familiar though

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Footy follower said:

I've got a great name for the new western league West......" South west peninsula league." .... Sounds familiar though

In one, I wish the FA would sod off and concentrate on their real interests...the premiership. 

[The Observer__]

It will 100% happen 

[Easterfield]

Well, Mr Keyburygull, had I known you were asking we could have discussed matters when we exchanged greetings at the final whistle at Buckland. I'd also seen the former Torquay Fans Forum supremo but not the bloke from beyond the roundabout.

The nearest to an 'official' word is, as reported above, what Phil Hiscox said on the Cornish football podcast: a proposed "merged" Western/Peninsula structure from 2023/24. Phil said no more other than discussions started last summer. "More in a week" the good man promised although statements should have been released before then.

Plenty of speculation elsewhere online; some of it local but much of it from people in other parts of the country who follow such matters. I dare say some of it is more 'informed' or 'inside' than the rest. Keyburygull may have taken it a step forward with league names.

The talk is of two leagues at step 5 and three at step 6 (the latter basically being a reconstituted Peninsula W, E and Western 1). Possibly leagues of eighteen.

Plenty of guesswork about boundaries remembering that these may 'float' anyway. Also whether the N Bristol and Wilts clubs will be brought back from the Hellenic and placed in the 'other' section to 'ours'. This could have a big impact, one way or the other, on any dividing line.

Interesting one for Buckland who are an established Western League club right in the middle of the existing league who may equally enjoy their trips to Bristol and Cornwall. They'll probably be near the middle of any new structure too.

As others have said, it could end up as something like the old Peninsula Premier elevated to step 5 with (you assume) higher ground grading standards and automatic entry to the FA Cup. Promotion direct to Southern League with relegated clubs received in return.

Below, the former (to 2019) Peninsula 1W and 1E pretty much (if not exactly) elevated to step 6 with accompanying grading requirements and FA Vase entry possibilities.

But it's all speculation until when...

 

[Keyberrygull]

   Thanks for the informative response Easterfield, your extensive knowledge of football at this level frightens me. A complex situation where clubs reaching agreement is not going to be easy that's for sure. 
 

    In my opinion a step 5 league governed by the Peninsular league would best serve the needs of clubs in Cornwall. Would  that be a view shared by clubs in Devon, Dorset & Somerset? I'm not so sure.

    Apologies for not taking the time to have A chat yesterday, I promised the wife I wouldn't be late home.

    

  

[Both Sides of the Tamar]

On 16/04/2022 at 07:34, Easterfield said:

Well, Mr Keyburygull, had I known you were asking we could have discussed matters when we exchanged greetings at the final whistle at Buckland. I'd also seen the former Torquay Fans Forum supremo but not the bloke from beyond the roundabout.

The nearest to an 'official' word is, as reported above, what Phil Hiscox said on the Cornish football podcast: a proposed "merged" Western/Peninsula structure from 2023/24. Phil said no more other than discussions started last summer. "More in a week" the good man promised although statements should have been released before then.

Plenty of speculation elsewhere online; some of it local but much of it from people in other parts of the country who follow such matters. I dare say some of it is more 'informed' or 'inside' than the rest. Keyburygull may have taken it a step forward with league names.

The talk is of two leagues at step 5 and three at step 6 (the latter basically being a reconstituted Peninsula W, E and Western 1). Possibly leagues of eighteen.

Plenty of guesswork about boundaries remembering that these may 'float' anyway. Also whether the N Bristol and Wilts clubs will be brought back from the Hellenic and placed in the 'other' section to 'ours'. This could have a big impact, one way or the other, on any dividing line.

Interesting one for Buckland who are an established Western League club right in the middle of the existing league who may equally enjoy their trips to Bristol and Cornwall. They'll probably be near the middle of any new structure too.

As others have said, it could end up as something like the old Peninsula Premier elevated to step 5 with (you assume) higher ground grading standards and automatic entry to the FA Cup. Promotion direct to Southern League with relegated clubs received in return.

Below, the former (to 2019) Peninsula 1W and 1E pretty much (if not exactly) elevated to step 6 with accompanying grading requirements and FA Vase entry possibilities.

But it's all speculation until when...

 

I don't know too many who enjoyed the old M5 fortnightly nightmare that was. As a  Bucks watcher then not me for sure!

[Easterfield]

Slippage on the restructuring proposals. Phil Hiscox unable to update on this week's podcast. "Another week or two" he hopes.

[Easterfield]

The FA has released a statement. It's really a case of them announcing there is a proposal for consultation without releasing any detail of what it might contain.

Phil Hiscox adding information on the "replies" section of SWPL's twitter account:

    - two step five leagues catering for clubs from Cornwall to Cribbs Causeway; a "select few" to be promoted from step 6.

    - step 6 leagues for the same patch.

Phli Hiscox also expressing the hope for "a more even competiition" at step 6 for those who remain at that level. Surely too in future, depending on boundaries, the local step 6 leagues should always - or nearly always - be receiving clubs relegated from step 5 in exchange for those they promote?    

Cribbs Causeway is interesting as a northern limit. That would include Cribbs and Halllen but not Almondsbury, Chipping Sodbury, Lebeq, Roman Glass St George and Tytherington Rocks of current/recent Western League clubs. 

[Town Fan]

On 22/04/2022 at 18:52, Easterfield said:

The FA has released a statement. It's really a case of them announcing there is a proposal for consultation without releasing any detail of what it might contain.

Phil Hiscox adding information on the "replies" section of SWPL's twitter account:

    - two step five leagues catering for clubs from Cornwall to Cribbs Causeway; a "select few" to be promoted from step 6.

    - step 6 leagues for the same patch.

Phli Hiscox also expressing the hope for "a more even competiition" at step 6 for those who remain at that level. Surely too in future, depending on boundaries, the local step 6 leagues should always - or nearly always - be receiving clubs relegated from step 5 in exchange for those they promote?    

Cribbs Causeway is interesting as a northern limit. That would include Cribbs and Halllen but not Almondsbury, Chipping Sodbury, Lebeq, Roman Glass St George and Tytherington Rocks of current/recent Western League clubs.

So if I read this correctly, a "select few" will be promoted to get the numbers right.  Where does that leave the Step 6 leagues?  We've already seen Porthleven withdraw during a season and I'll be honest, that came  as a surprise to me.  Presumably, some Step 7 sides will then be promoted to Step 6, which is great for those clubs if they can afford it.   The other issue which will reveal its ugly head and one the FA takes seriously, is ground grading.  Two clubs which have recently fallen foul of this gem are Risborough Rangers and Welwyn Garden City.   The next question is, what happens when the winners of the Step 5 leagues get promoted to Step 4?  At some point the travelling issue will be unavoidable.  

[Martin Eddy]

From St. Piran to Peninsula West is a very big step for clubs off the pitch. Penryn we’re more fortunate than most because of their facilities. Of the 3 clubs who have applied from the West they would all have to spend a lot of money to upgrade. This is stopping clubs from applying as yes there are grants available but they do not appear over night.

If you look at the 3 clubs they all have excellent facilities and are proper football grounds, yes they all know they could improve as we all can at our clubs but is the League structure holding good teams back.

Being hypothetical if Praze who have gained promotion to the Combo league have aspirations then they would have to start applying now for grants,if they wanted to get into the Penisula league eventually. By the time they get there would they still have their good team on the pitch.

The FA say that the structure is built so that a grassroots club has the opportunity to get to the Premier League, good sentiments but is it really realistic.

And this is all before we have the argument of will players travel. Clubs need a really good strong committed dedicated band of volunteers/ committee and an excellent youth set up to even consider this and for that you need more than one pitch. If you ask Dropship who are looking for pitches they are as rare as hens teeth. Also the sorry news from Illogan about the possible loss of their youth pitch. Things are getting harder and harder for clubs in the present climate and feel that this could hinder clubs even more.

Anyone who knows me will know I am very proactive and have always helped out behind the scenes, I have held all positions at clubs and rolled my sleeves up and been prepared to do anything. But things are getting tougher for clubs and they need more help from above not hurdles.

 

[John Mead]

I think the FA are well aware that the far West presents a problem within the NLS and a "one size fits all" solution won't work. Travel will always be an issue but the "pyramid" system also needs an inordinate supply of Clubs and players to feed the next Step up. As stated by Postman Pat above, Ground Grading is a big & expensive issue, which Clubs need to plan for at least 12 months ahead of any promotion ambitions; deciding to apply in December because the team is doing well and hoping to get all necessary improvements completed by 31st March is nigh-on impossible.

To add to the "recruitment" problem, it is proposed that, from 2023/24, Feeder Leagues - such as St Piran - cannot admit Clubs with a pitch size less than 100 x 64 metres.

The current proposals to reduce travel are certainly workable and gives the opportunity for a dozen more Clubs to join the NLS. However, we still have the same, limited player-pool to populate the teams. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, John Mead said:

I think the FA are well aware that the far West presents a problem within the NLS and a "one size fits all" solution won't work. Travel will always be an issue but the "pyramid" system also needs an inordinate supply of Clubs and players to feed the next Step up. As stated by Postman Pat above, Ground Grading is a big & expensive issue, which Clubs need to plan for at least 12 months ahead of any promotion ambitions; deciding to apply in December because the team is doing well and hoping to get all necessary improvements completed by 31st March is nigh-on impossible.

To add to the "recruitment" problem, it is proposed that, from 2023/24, Feeder Leagues - such as St Piran - cannot admit Clubs with a pitch size less than 100 x 64 metres.

The current proposals to reduce travel are certainly workable and gives the opportunity for a dozen more Clubs to join the NLS. However, we still have the same, limited player-pool to populate the teams. 

Excellent post John. The pitch size will be a problem for many but is probably doable for most, the problem then lies there's no room for anything on the perimeter. 

[Easterfield]

Statement at https://www.swpleague.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Project-South-West-Proposal.pdf

The leaks/speculation appear to have been pretty much spot on. A 2+3 step 5/6 structure with likely leagues of eighteen. No name yet; no detail about promotion or relegation.

Around a dozen additional clubs needed across the entire region one way or the other (step 5-6 elevations; replenishment of step 6 leagues) although - as Phil Hiscox emphasised on the podcast - some of this will come from ex-Western step 5 clubs returning from the Hellenic (eight went across last summer; three of which won't be step 5 next season). Also dependent on relegations from the Southern in the season preceding the new league's establishment.

No mention of a possible eastern edge but, once you remember you're east of Bristol city centre when you reach Sherborne (together with the mooted return of the now-Hellenic clubs), the new league looks likely to include West Wiltshire which is "traditional" Western territory.

All boundaries are moveable feasts depending who is on the map in any one year. Mapping in the document appears to show the extent of how these could move from one extreme to the other at both step 5 and step 6.     

A highly regionalised league cup you would imagine.

[Keyberrygull]

On 15/04/2022 at 23:07, silly billy said:

No

Yes

[Ian Pethick]

Something that was pointed out on the non league matters, and something I had not thought of, is that the merger of the Peninsula and Western Leagues will mean an end to the current practice of dual registration for players between the two leagues. That is one positive to take from this.

[Dave Deacon]

Hoorah for that 👍

[hedgerow]

Some cracking games between the Cornish teams next season

[Gary Hocking]

Brislington’s request for voluntary relegation to Western League Division One has been granted (having had their request for a lateral move to the Hellenic denied 12 months ago). I guess, another indication that the restructure is probably the right thing to do. 

[Easterfield]

16 hours ago, GaryHocking said:

Brislington’s request for voluntary relegation to Western League Division One has been granted (having had their request for a lateral move to the Hellenic denied 12 months ago). I guess, another indication that the restructure is probably the right thing to do. 

Sherborne Town and Welton Rovers join from the Western’s step 6 division to make a proposed division of twenty.

That’s ten to Wellington and the west/south; ten north/east of a line linking Bridgwater and Sherborne (black line). Draw the line west of Wellington and it's 9 south/11 north (red line). One of these lines may prove the basis for how the new step 5 leagues will split.

Map from Non League Matters:  https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/2/edit?mid=15IuJLLoT2Dhk3empD-K-qq72u-37zj5L&usp=sharing

It’s this little group of clubs below - allocated to next season’s Hellenic step 5 division - which may have a big part to play in where our new step 5 league’s north/south boundary falls (and, in turn, how many current Peninsula teams will be “elevated” to step 5 in time for the new league).

 

This group will change with promotions and relegations but, currently, all bar one are past members of the Western League. You’d imagine they’d not be too adverse to a league which stretches from their northern edge as far south as around Taunton. Phil Hiscox spoke of the possibility of some of these  clubs “coming back” in a recent podcast.    

A decision for the FA who would then, if these clubs joined the North section of the new league, be needing to replenish the Hellenic in their wake.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

On 24/04/2022 at 13:00, Postman Pat said:

From St. Piran to Peninsula West is a very big step for clubs off the pitch. Penryn we’re more fortunate than most because of their facilities. Of the 3 clubs who have applied from the West they would all have to spend a lot of money to upgrade. This is stopping clubs from applying as yes there are grants available but they do not appear over night.

If you look at the 3 clubs they all have excellent facilities and are proper football grounds, yes they all know they could improve as we all can at our clubs but is the League structure holding good teams back.

Being hypothetical if Praze who have gained promotion to the Combo league have aspirations then they would have to start applying now for grants,if they wanted to get into the Penisula league eventually. By the time they get there would they still have their good team on the pitch.

The FA say that the structure is built so that a grassroots club has the opportunity to get to the Premier League, good sentiments but is it really realistic.

And this is all before we have the argument of will players travel. Clubs need a really good strong committed dedicated band of volunteers/ committee and an excellent youth set up to even consider this and for that you need more than one pitch. If you ask Dropship who are looking for pitches they are as rare as hens teeth. Also the sorry news from Illogan about the possible loss of their youth pitch. Things are getting harder and harder for clubs in the present climate and feel that this could hinder clubs even more.

Anyone who knows me will know I am very proactive and have always helped out behind the scenes, I have held all positions at clubs and rolled my sleeves up and been prepared to do anything. But things are getting tougher for clubs and they need more help from above not hurdles.

 

Just read this Pat, Penryn fortunate? 

Our upgrade in facilities at that time cost £76,000 with a grant of £10,000 from the FA. 

Hardly fortunate...perhaps expensive would of been a better choice of words, a lot of money back in the day.

[Dave Deacon]

3 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Just read this Pat, Penryn fortunate? 

Our upgrade in facilities at that time cost £76,000 with a grant of £10,000 from the FA. 

Hardly fortunate...perhaps expensive would of been a better choice of words, a lot of money back in the day.

What £76,000  for the start of season 2021-22 when you returned to the SWPL?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

What £76,000  for the start of season 2021-22 when you returned to the SWPL?

No, when we first entered the old Southwestern league. 

[Martin Eddy]

7 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Just read this Pat, Penryn fortunate? 

Our upgrade in facilities at that time cost £76,000 with a grant of £10,000 from the FA. 

Hardly fortunate...perhaps expensive would of been a better choice of words, a lot of money back in the day.

Sorry dave I meant when you went up the last time you were already established  ground wise. I know how hard your club has worked to get where it is. My point was that it does not happen overnight, and certainly longer than 12 months. For a club from St. Pirans like Redruth to gain promotion we would have to have a 10 year plan even if we were good enough on the pitch.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Postman Pat said:

Sorry dave I meant when you went up the last time you were already established  ground wise. I know how hard your club has worked to get where it is. My point was that it does not happen overnight, and certainly longer than 12 months. For a club from St. Pirans like Redruth to gain promotion we would have to have a 10 year plan even if we were good enough on the pitch.

No apologies needed Pat, today the portion of the grant is a lot bigger than it was then.

Best of luck to you on your journey upwards buddy.

[Martin Eddy]

Any club without ambition will fail, it’s what us volunteers strive for at the end of the day.

[le boss]

Think the Truro “journey” should be a salutary lesson to all clubs, especially in Cornwall. The bottom line is players don’t want to or can’t spend their whole weekends travelling for a game of football. Then there is the ever deminishing talent pool/lack of interest. Think Sourhern League is the absolute limit for Cornish football and even that won’t be achieved by a purely local team. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

20 minutes ago, le boss said:

Think the Truro “journey” should be a salutary lesson to all clubs, especially in Cornwall. The bottom line is players don’t want to or can’t spend their whole weekends travelling for a game of football. Then there is the ever deminishing talent pool/lack of interest. Think Sourhern League is the absolute limit for Cornish football and even that won’t be achieved by a purely local team. 

There would not be many Cornish players in a Southern league team - if any.

[The Town Man]

3 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

There would not be many Cornish players in a Southern league team - if any.

Matt Buchan at Bideford?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

11 minutes ago, The Town Man said:

Matt Buchan at Bideford?

Dont know of him, dont watch football at more than local football  level very often.

[The Town Man]

Fair enough. Was at Helston, then Town for a season or two. Started last season at Helston but played most of the season for Bideford. Scored a few goals up there too!

[Ian Pethick]

On 13/05/2022 at 22:43, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

There would not be many Cornish players in a Southern league team - if any.

Andy Watkins at Tiverton, think he lives in North Cornwall.

Billy Palfrey at Parkway, lives in Looe.

Matt Andrew at Parkway, lives in Launceston (I believe).

[Dave Deacon]

2 hours ago, Way Of The Park said:

Andy Watkins at Tiverton, think he lives in North Cornwall.

Billy Palfrey at Parkway, lives in Looe.

Matt Andrew at Parkway, lives in Launceston (I believe).

Matty Buchan - Bideford. Lives in Helston I think 

[BAGMAN]

Correct, and he will be playing at a higher level than Bideford next year. You heard it here first!

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

3 hours ago, Way Of The Park said:

Andy Watkins at Tiverton, think he lives in North Cornwall.

Billy Palfrey at Parkway, lives in Looe.

Matt Andrew at Parkway, lives in Launceston (I believe).

¾ of the way out of Cornwall already...lol

[Martin Eddy]

1 hour ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

¾ of the way out of Cornwall already...lol

Was thinking the same thing older. Apart from Matt Buchan that is some trip for a home game