Is it time the Peninsula League started using club lines person?

[Mr Justice]

As many in the Cornish football community can see there is a severe shortage of match officials in the lower leagues.  I believe one weekend this month there are no match officials available for the whole of the Trelawny League!

I'm not suggesting the Peninsula League has been 'downgraded' but is it time the league started using clubs lines persons instead of appointed official linesperson's for fixtures?

[Paul]

Definitely not if the league want to be of any decent standard. 

[Easyyyy]

It would be a great help to the lower leagues no doubt, but I can't see many SWPL clubs agreeing to this. It seems like somewhat of a backwards step and it's definitely preferable to have 'neutrals' officiating.

[silly billy]

39 minutes ago, Paul said:

Definitely not if the league want to be of any decent standard. 

So what do you suggest?

[baldy]

17 minutes ago, silly billy said:

So what do you suggest?

 

56 minutes ago, Paul said:

Definitely not if the league want to be of any decent standard. 

We all know it’s a problem for all the leagues below Step 6. Lots of clubs struggle to get a club linesman volunteer even though an online course is available, I think. It doesn’t help when officials are lambasted either at the game or on here. I was recently messaging a relatively new ref at a particular level and he was very disillusioned after his game and considering giving up. Officials do the best they can, they all make “mistakes”, at least according to the supporters. Give them the benefit of any doubt and just the enjoy watching. 

[FootballChat]

Could the clubs in the SWPL cope with 2 neutral officials?

usually there’s a referee, senior assistant and junior assistant I believe.

if each club were to provide a ‘club assistant’ to do 45 minutes each and then the neutral assistant stayed in the side of the benches to administer subs etc it would free up a number of referee for the junior leagues.

the appointed official would do 45 mins on either back line and the club lino would do their own back 4 for 45 mins.

Its fair for both sides as they each treated equally in terms of neutral assistant.

 

Just across the SWPL West this would free up 9 match officials to help the crisis. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Supporters,   players and managers shutting their mouths would help the crisis!

[hoppit]

9 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Supporters,   players and managers shutting their mouths would help the crisis!

This is where the ref problem begins and ends.

 

[6times]

1 hour ago, silly billy said:

So what do you suggest?

Lose some of these low junior leagues and form Sunday leagues , some proper linos  can then be the middle man on a Sunday  and earn a few more quid . 

[Darin Morse]

Staggering kick off times and fixturing matches on Sundays, Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays would free up officials and increase attendances by attracting neutral spectators. I can also see some merit in summer football, avoiding Saturdays altogether so cricket wouldn't be affected.

[Dave Bartlam]

Just treat officials with respect.

Unfortunately, the referee shortage doesn't affect the the SWPL (although I l believe they were using club assistants not so long ago), however the SWPL players, management and 'supporters' directly influence (and push) referees to quit. 

Cornwall FA are working so hard to recruit referees- recruitment of which isn't the problem. The problem is retention. Who in their right mind wants to give up a Saturday to take s**t for 90 minutes and then have to read all about their performance on here and social media in the aftermath, written by blinkered eyed people with only one side of the situation and with very little knowledge or understanding of the laws whilst the players that received cautions, got sent off, that caused the referee issues, mis timed passes, missed open goals etc get away with no criticism? Most of the time, clubs grievances come as a result of them not knowing or understanding the laws of the game... 

I suggested not long ago that actually, all league's should feel the affects of the referee shortage, not just those at the bottom of the pyramid. That won't happen though as those on the pyramid are pretty much protected.

It wasn't that long ago that the abuse (and that's exactly what it is) referees were facing was creating a movement for refs to simply close their dates for a week or two... Part of me thinks that needs to happen.

56 minutes ago, Darin Morse said:

Staggering kick off times and fixturing matches on Sundays, Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays would free up officials and increase attendances by attracting neutral spectators. I can also see some merit in summer football, avoiding Saturdays altogether so cricket wouldn't be affected.

Staggering dates and days doesn't help either. We've already seen at the lower levels, clubs struggling for refs midweek when there are significantly less matches being fixtures.

The simple truth is that there are not enough referees and there is very few incentives to progress or continue.

As someone that works hard to promote and recruit/retain referees, I find it hard to encourage them as time goes on.

[St Darren]

The higher the level the more the referees get abuse of players and management.

If a player in the trelawny league spoke to a referee the way that a  player in the SWL does then they'd be sent off.  Why is this??? 

[Dave Bartlam]

10 minutes ago, St Darren said:

The higher the level the more the referees get abuse of players and management.

If a player in the trelawny league spoke to a referee the way that a  player in the SWL does then they'd be sent off.  Why is this??? 

It's easy. The Trelawny games, in terms of progression, will not hamper a referees ability to get promoted. They certainly don't get demoted.  At level four (SWPL), club marks play a part in the banding. So because of that, referees try to 'manage' situations where in the lower league's, you'd just bin/send off. At level four, it's the first step that you get to be demoted as a referee. Refs want to officiate at the highest levels (Cornwall is a bit different due to travel, majority are happy at four) so they have to get the marks from observers and teams in order to retain that status.

In my opinion, the top five causes of referees leaving the game are:

Abuse during the game

Abuse after the game on social media

Family/other commitments 

Better things to do on a Saturday 

Travel

 

It is only going to get worse.

[We Two]

There are good and bad players and like good and bad referees they can have a definitive effect on the quality and enjoyment of a football match.

The difference is that referees are regularly held accountable for poor performances, by players who see it as a way of deflecting criticism of their own poor  contribution during a match.

The telling confirmation of this fact is borne out by the lack of perfect players who never put a foot wrong, but are seldom willing to put something back in to the game at  the end of their playing career, by exhibiting their talent of perfection as a referee.

Having been involved in various levels of football, the ref who is perfect in the eyes of both teams has yet to come in to focus.
In the end the sobering thought that needs to be considered is, no ref, no game, no good !!

[claret&blue]

Watched a peninsula league game recently where the referee was getting serious abuse from a supporter of the home team, when questioned on his comments by a visiting supporter this person then said it was fine to comment as he was a referee himself ! He was also stood with another referee who made a few jokes about his comments. Nice to see the refs backing each other up !

[St Darren]

1 hour ago, Dave Bartlam said:

It's easy. The Trelawny games, in terms of progression, will not hamper a referees ability to get promoted. They certainly don't get demoted.  At level four (SWPL), club marks play a part in the banding. So because of that, referees try to 'manage' situations where in the lower league's, you'd just bin/send off. At level four, it's the first step that you get to be demoted as a referee. Refs want to officiate at the highest levels (Cornwall is a bit different due to travel, majority are happy at four) so they have to get the marks from observers and teams in order to retain that status.

In my opinion, the top five causes of referees leaving the game are:

Abuse during the game

Abuse after the game on social media

Family/other commitments 

Better things to do on a Saturday 

Travel

 

It is only going to get worse.

So they ref the game differently then. 

No wonder those playing Trelawny league men about referees as they're treated differently. 

[Dave Bartlam]

25 minutes ago, St Darren said:

So they ref the game differently then. 

No wonder those playing Trelawny league men about referees as they're treated differently. 

Of course the games are reffed differently.  They're completely different standards of football with completely different attitudes, behaviours and skill levels.  They have to be reffed differently - only someone that has refereed would understand that though (no offence). Look at the Premier League, again, reffed differently to National League etc. It's all about who you're reffing and at what standard.

Me personally, I much rather refereeing at the bottom end of the pyramid. It's a lot easier and you get far, far less abuse.

 

29 minutes ago, claret&blue said:

Watched a peninsula league game recently where the referee was getting serious abuse from a supporter of the home team, when questioned on his comments by a visiting supporter this person then said it was fine to comment as he was a referee himself ! He was also stood with another referee who made a few jokes about his comments. Nice to see the refs backing each other up !

That's just poor form.  I got blamed for a refs performance by a team last week when I went to carry out an observation. Figure that one!

[Footy follower]

5 minutes ago, Dave Bartlam said:

Of course the games are reffed differently.  They're completely different standards of football with completely different attitudes, behaviours and skill levels.  They have to be reffed differently - only someone that has refereed would understand that though.

Me personally, I much rather refereeing at the bottom end of the pyramid. It's a lot easier and you get far, far less abuse.

 

That's just poor form.  I got blamed for a refs performance by a team last week when I went to carry out an observation. Figure that one!

The reason you may have got blamed, and it's not your fault, is because a lot of refs will change how they ref.. And openly say this.. Because they are being assessed

[St Darren]

Do the same laws apply though? 

You can read a game differently but surely the same laws are applied and that includes foul and abusive language. 

[Dave Bartlam]

12 minutes ago, Footy follower said:

The reason you may have got blamed, and it's not your fault, is because a lot of refs will change how they ref.. And openly say this.. Because they are being assessed

Oh I know... I'm one of them back in the day that used to change the way I reffed in order to get the good marks. We say we don't do it but we do change the way we do things when being observed, sometimes it might only be very slight mannerisms...

 

12 minutes ago, St Darren said:

Do the same laws apply though? 

You can read a game differently but surely the same laws are applied and that includes foul and abusive language. 

Absolutely they do. 

Trust me, I'm with you here. One of the reasons it's taken me so long to go for my promotion is that I never wanted to ref on the SWPL because of the grief the refs get. I've run the line on it for a few years now and I enjoy that, but the middle is a different entity altogether. However, i refer back to my point I made earlier about marks and promotion. 

I remember saying to a good friend of mine not long ago when I was lining to him 'why do you take so much s**t'.. 'because I have too. If I don't, I'm back to being a level 5'. 

How many complaints do we see on this forum for the card happy refs? How many do we see for the ones that let it all go? Then how many do we see for the guys that do it right but still get grief? You honestly just can't win. It's why you don't get referees commenting on their games anymore. I refuse to comment on any of my games now.

I love refereeing. Out of every 20 or 30 games I do, only 1 will normally make me think 'wtf am I wasting my time for'...  I've said it time and time again, if players, managers etc just accepted decisions, didn't argue, didn't give the ref abuse and just let them manage and officiate the game, I would put my mortgage on it that the standard of refereeing would improve - because the refs can solely focus on his decison making as opposed to all the other stuff. They'd be happier, they'd enjoy the game and they'd perform.

Look at Karen, works in customer service...  hates her job, gets grief from employer, colleagues, customers... Performs below standard.

Same Karen, has supportive colleagues, supportive bosses and her customers phone her up, speak to her with respect and dignity... Performs miles above standard.

It's no different to reffing.

[We Two]

The marking of referees system is at considerable fault for inconsistent refereeing because of marks awarded by clubs whose marks awarded are heavilly influenced by the result rather than the referees performance.    
We regularly read reports by supporters on the forum whose team has lost, that the ref was poor and the loss was down to him. ( following the players theme ).
Whilst accepting that that the refs performance is bound to affect a match as he is involved in the whole 90 minutes of a game, consistent poor marks are followed by the ref being assessed.
Abandon the club marking system and rely on the report of an anonymous assessor or indecisive refereeing will continue.

[Footy follower]

10 hours ago, Dave Bartlam said:

Oh I know... I'm one of them back in the day that used to change the way I reffed in order to get the good marks. We say we don't do it but we do change the way we do things when being observed, sometimes it might only be very slight mannerisms...

 

Absolutely they do. 

Trust me, I'm with you here. One of the reasons it's taken me so long to go for my promotion is that I never wanted to ref on the SWPL because of the grief the refs get. I've run the line on it for a few years now and I enjoy that, but the middle is a different entity altogether. However, i refer back to my point I made earlier about marks and promotion. 

I remember saying to a good friend of mine not long ago when I was lining to him 'why do you take so much s**t'.. 'because I have too. If I don't, I'm back to being a level 5'. 

How many complaints do we see on this forum for the card happy refs? How many do we see for the ones that let it all go? Then how many do we see for the guys that do it right but still get grief? You honestly just can't win. It's why you don't get referees commenting on their games anymore. I refuse to comment on any of my games now.

I love refereeing. Out of every 20 or 30 games I do, only 1 will normally make me think 'wtf am I wasting my time for'...  I've said it time and time again, if players, managers etc just accepted decisions, didn't argue, didn't give the ref abuse and just let them manage and officiate the game, I would put my mortgage on it that the standard of refereeing would improve - because the refs can solely focus on his decison making as opposed to all the other stuff. They'd be happier, they'd enjoy the game and they'd perform.

Look at Karen, works in customer service...  hates her job, gets grief from employer, colleagues, customers... Performs below standard.

Same Karen, has supportive colleagues, supportive bosses and her customers phone her up, speak to her with respect and dignity... Performs miles above standard.

It's no different to reffing.

Excellent post 👏

[Dave Bartlam]

2 minutes ago, We Two said:

The marking of referees system is at considerable fault for inconsistent refereeing because of marks awarded by clubs whose marks awarded are heavilly influenced by the result rather than the referees performance.    
We regularly read reports by supporters on the forum whose team has lost, that the ref was poor and the loss was down to him. ( following the players theme ).
Whilst accepting that that the refs performance is bound to affect a match as he is involved in the whole 90 minutes of a game, consistent poor marks are followed by the ref being assessed.
Abandon the club marking system and rely on the report of an anonymous assessor or indecisive refereeing will continue.

10000% my stance aswell. When I was on the Trelawny Committee, the losing club would mark 61, winning club would mark around the 90 area. It was evident to see. The standard expected (ish) is 70. So when I saw a 61 (anything below and you have to write a small report), I'd email the club and say I expect a report or the mark needs to be changed to 70 or above. 

Let's get something straight though - sometimes refs aren't all that great. Some are new and have little experience and knowledge, some are experienced but are aging, some are good young experienced referees but y'know what, they may have had a crap week or morning and refereeing isn't at the forefront of their mind, but they turn up to do it anyway so as the teams don't go without. I've been in that situation a number of times recently because I've got alot going on, it can certainly affect performance. I've come off games before thinking 's**t. I've underperformed here. They deserve better'.

Take last week... I was centre of attention on the forum and I really wanted to put my point across... But I won't do it. Yet, as soon as that final whistle went at that game, all the way through to today, I'm still going over my performance in my head. I still hear what was said to me, I still see the stuff written on the forum... It doesn't bother me more than it annoys me, but for others, it really does affect them. Refs will always critique their performance all the way up to the next game. They'll always take what they learnt into the next game too. We aren't there to mess up anyone's day. We are there as a neutral, to do a job. Unfortunately, doing it right sometimes makes us very unpopular.

A good example is I got hit by the ball last week... I got hassle for not stopping the game for a good 20 minutes after... Someone came on the forum, said about it and was corrected to show that I was correct in law to continue. Because of the lack of knowledge of the law, I took a hammering. Yet when explaining to a player that we get examined every year on the LOTG, the chances are (at this level), all the technical offences, we are making the correct decision.

All it takes is one person to say 'hes probably right. Trust him' or 'yeah I've seen this, he's spot on" and that would have sorted it. But they didn't and there's another cause of the problem that is absolutely hammering Cornwall right now.

I just wish that for one weekend, or two, the likes of the St Piran League, SWPL, Western League etc could do what the Trelawny League teams are having to do on a very regular basis (one of my teams has no ref for the third consecutive week) and supply a referee and assistants themselves. I can bet you that it wouldn't be long until clubs are begging for the refs back!

Apologies for the essays but this sort of thing, I'm passionate about because all I try and do is promote refereeing.

[B Manning]

Well from my personal experience I never ref any game differently, in every game I tried to do the best I could ( note the past tense) , also I have refereed at  what is these days level three.

[B Manning]

Tried to message you Keith , to no avail.

[We Two]

Perhaps banning detailed descriptions of a referees alledged failure to do his job well, ( especially by losing teams / supporters ) on this forum would be a substantial start.
Refs should not be beyond criticism, but as stated before, much criticisim, or lack of it, is sadly coloured by the result of the match.

[B Manning]

It’s not always the losing team, I have been congratulated on my game by a neutral observer also two of the winning teams supporters approached me and thanked me for a good game and guess what their team who won put in an adverse report about me.

[SCFC]

A fantastic insight from @Dave Bartlam. I admire the honesty, and truly believe you're one of the best ref's around. A lot of poor ref's IMO... age, fitness and ability the main culprits, but cant be helped if there is no young breed of ref's coming through.... as a result of abuse etc.

A possible solution I thought about was having more players as ref's. Bare with me on this one. Many league's these days, very few have midweek games and given most have odd numbers, there will usually be a team without a game on a saturday as well.

 

For example, Boardmasters means that Newquay and Godolphin do not play at home, and so lets assume they both had the weekend off. Out of the 30/40 players and staff of the combined sides, some will play for other sides, some will have other commitments but even 1 or 2 being available to ref a Trelawney game would be more use than harm?

Just a suggestion

[Mr Justice]

Interesting debate.  Can anyone from the match official community enlighten the forum on the effect sin bins have had on dissent in the lower leagues and if it has improved on pitch behaviour?

Reading the above I wonder if it is worth the FA implementing sin bins higher up the steps. 

[Dave Bartlam]

4 minutes ago, SCFC said:

A fantastic insight from @Dave Bartlam. I admire the honesty, and truly believe you're one of the best ref's around. A lot of poor ref's IMO... age, fitness and ability the main culprits, but cant be helped if there is no young breed of ref's coming through.... as a result of abuse etc.

A possible solution I thought about was having more players as ref's. Bare with me on this one. Many league's these days, very few have midweek games and given most have odd numbers, there will usually be a team without a game on a saturday as well.

 

For example, Boardmasters means that Newquay and Godolphin do not play at home, and so lets assume they both had the weekend off. Out of the 30/40 players and staff of the combined sides, some will play for other sides, some will have other commitments but even 1 or 2 being available to ref a Trelawney game would be more use than harm?

Just a suggestion

I appreciate that, thank you.

This is why I got into reffing - I played, fed up with games being called off so I took the course. I've dabbled between playing and reffing over the past few seasons but back reffing this season, obviously still playing when I can.

I tried so hard when on the Trelawny Panel to get some players through the course and it's great to see some of them still either occasionally picking up the whistle or doing it full time. George McVey, Nick Tomba, Peggy Mitchell, Alan Smith, Neil Pitt, Sam Doble, Will Annear, Neil Stephens etc to name but a few all refereeing having come from  playing backrounds. I'm a firm believer that ex players make the best referees (although there are good ones that haven't played). 

Let's hope more have a go soon

[baldy]

1 hour ago, Mr Justice said:

Interesting debate.  Can anyone from the match official community enlighten the forum on the effect sin bins have had on dissent in the lower leagues and if it has improved on pitch behaviour?

Reading the above I wonder if it is worth the FA implementing sin bins higher up the steps. 

Disagree. I have always believed they should have introduced it at the highest levels FIRST. Just imagine a Premier manager’s reaction to one of his players being sin-binned! Would stop it inside 2 weeks and then hopefully the lower league players would see the futility of arguing with refs. 
I could be cynical and suggest the FA are interested only in protecting the higher leagues?

[The Town Man]

15 hours ago, Dave Bartlam said:

Oh I know... I'm one of them back in the day that used to change the way I reffed in order to get the good marks. We say we don't do it but we do change the way we do things when being observed, sometimes it might only be very slight mannerisms...

 

Absolutely they do. 

Trust me, I'm with you here. One of the reasons it's taken me so long to go for my promotion is that I never wanted to ref on the SWPL because of the grief the refs get. I've run the line on it for a few years now and I enjoy that, but the middle is a different entity altogether. However, i refer back to my point I made earlier about marks and promotion. 

I remember saying to a good friend of mine not long ago when I was lining to him 'why do you take so much s**t'.. 'because I have too. If I don't, I'm back to being a level 5'. 

How many complaints do we see on this forum for the card happy refs? How many do we see for the ones that let it all go? Then how many do we see for the guys that do it right but still get grief? You honestly just can't win. It's why you don't get referees commenting on their games anymore. I refuse to comment on any of my games now.

I love refereeing. Out of every 20 or 30 games I do, only 1 will normally make me think 'wtf am I wasting my time for'...  I've said it time and time again, if players, managers etc just accepted decisions, didn't argue, didn't give the ref abuse and just let them manage and officiate the game, I would put my mortgage on it that the standard of refereeing would improve - because the refs can solely focus on his decison making as opposed to all the other stuff. They'd be happier, they'd enjoy the game and they'd perform.

Look at Karen, works in customer service...  hates her job, gets grief from employer, colleagues, customers... Performs below standard.

Same Karen, has supportive colleagues, supportive bosses and her customers phone her up, speak to her with respect and dignity... Performs miles above standard.

It's no different to reffing.

Surely the problem lies with the current system of assessment for referees. Refs should be able to apply the same logic for every game they ref, regardless of what level.  If they were not getting marked by the teams they could freely apply the rules.  Take dissent for example, in the lower leagues it is basically not tolerated.  Everyone understands this and hence it is rarely seen.  When seen it is punished accordingly.  If SWPL managers and players knew that similar punishment would be dished out at their level it would stop there also. The stakes are too high at that level to start playing with 8 or 9 players if they don't abide by the rules.

Dissent is not tolerated in Rugby at all levels so there is no need for it to be tolerated in football.  How are the refs assessed in Rugby?  Maybe we could apply similar methods to football.

[Foul Throw 3]

Excellent thread. Praise for Dave in his thoughts on the situation and even if one or two change their mind set it's a positive I think. I tried it a few years ago, to "put back into the game" so to speak at youth level. Thought it was ok apart from the odd parent. Water off a ducks back. Until I did an u18s "friendly" one Sunday and thought bleddy hell what's the point after one game. And it was all from the side line. An awful example set by a few "managers" in one dugout because they were losing in a game they expected to win. I also did the Schwan's USA Cup in Minnesota in 2018, reffing approx 35games in 12days, both as AR and the middle. Some excellent referees on show from all over the world. But again, the only negative were parents. An injury time penalty against a Chicago side caused 2 parents to attempt to end my life  that was enough for me. I'll put it "back into the game" through managing and committee work. Less threat to life!

Only a matter of time before club and in particular league committees are desperate too. 

More thought for referees should be given on all the above. I mentioned similar on a post a few days ago about it being a one man job rather than having team mates, etc. Single point of failure but we all jump on every single mistake. SOME referees are human!

I see Neil Pitt mentioned above by Dave. I doubt I'll have the pleasure of his whistle again as he's a westerner, but he did our friendlies vs Penryn Res and Penzance Res in July and I thought he was excellent. Didn't know he was an ex player but you could tell!

Good luck to all who want to take up the whistle. But first I think a change in attitude is vital before we lose our local game.

[Richard Chown]

Being a clubs lines man is the worst role in football. The amount of crap you get is unbelievable. I’m someone that can handle myself more than others but feel sorry for anyone that can’t. It’s all about interpretation. There is always one village idiot at a game.

I much prefer being an appointed match official at least it’s fun and you getting paid for it. 

The difference I see going up the leagues are that captains intimated the referee from the start of the game constantly in their ear ever single decision as soon as half time comes they are onto them as they make their way down the tunnel. Lower leagues are just happy to have a referee now. 

[Martin Eddy]

Agree Richard and that is why I’ve had enough, more and more experts on the playing side or in the crowd are quick to call you out. At the end of the day I only did it as a frustrated player and still loved being involved on game day.

Always tried to do my best and honest but that was never enough in the end.

Just now, Postman Pat said:

Agree Richard and that is why I’ve had enough, more and more experts on the playing side or in the crowd are quick to call you out. At the end of the day I only did it as a frustrated player and still loved being involved on game day.

Always tried to do my best and honest but that was never enough in the end.

Sorry honestly

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Always remember a referee in my junior football days, he was a reverend. 

When you knew you had him for your game you absolutely did not swear or you were off.

No dissent or swearing in his games.

Another in those days would not tolerate bad tackles, you were off, there were no Argy bargy's in his games either.

If I was a referee no matter at what level I would give one warning for dissent. Do it again you would be off, it would soon stop all of this nonsense. 

I would also not tolerate abuse to the lino's, you'd be off for that as well.

I would never lip my mother or father, police or teacher...no way, my father would have sorted that out pronto!

Not the same today but players and managers would soon get the message...keep your opinions to yourself, with a thank you at the end of the game.

A lot of people need a lot of growing up in my world. 

[le boss]

26 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Always remember a referee in my junior football days, he was a reverend. 

When you knew you had him for your game you absolutely did not swear or you were off.

No dissent or swearing in his games.

Another in those days would not tolerate bad tackles, you were off, there were no Argy bargy's in his games either.

If I was a referee no matter at what level I would give one warning for dissent. Do it again you would be off, it would soon stop all of this nonsense. 

I would also not tolerate abuse to the lino's, you'd be off for that as well.

I would never lip my mother or father, police or teacher...no way, my father would have sorted that out pronto!

Not the same today but players and managers would soon get the message...keep your opinions to yourself, with a thank you at the end of the game.

A lot of people need a lot of growing up in my world. 

Remember the refs you are referring to and totally agree with what you say. I swore as a player, but never at an official and when I managed, if any player got booked or sent off for gobbing off, no sympathy was given to them and the club had the "open your mouth - open your wallet" policy and by in large it worked.

I don't hold with referees complaining about the abuse from players - laws are there to deal with it, so use them, even if it means teams ending up with 8 or 9 players - they'll soon learn the expensive lesson. Think is's a little disrespectful for refs to ref games differently according to standard - would the ref want to be treated differently according to the standard?

Lastly, sadly social media is here to stay but everybody still has the choice to use it - media comments would not affect you if you did not read them - don't give idiots the oxygen and they will soon go away and stop abusing people.

[Dave Bartlam]

4 minutes ago, le boss said:

Remember the refs you are referring to and totally agree with what you say. I swore as a player, but never at an official and when I managed, if any player got booked or sent off for gobbing off, no sympathy was given to them and the club had the "open your mouth - open your wallet" policy and by in large it worked.

I don't hold with referees complaining about the abuse from players - laws are there to deal with it, so use them, even if it means teams ending up with 8 or 9 players - they'll soon learn the expensive lesson. Think is's a little disrespectful for refs to ref games differently according to standard - would the ref want to be treated differently according to the standard?

Lastly, sadly social media is here to stay but everybody still has the choice to use it - media comments would not affect you if you did not read them - don't give idiots the oxygen and they will soon go away and stop abusing people.

We are treated differently at the different standards!

[Footy follower]

4 hours ago, SCFC said:

A fantastic insight from @Dave Bartlam. I admire the honesty, and truly believe you're one of the best ref's around. A lot of poor ref's IMO... age, fitness and ability the main culprits, but cant be helped if there is no young breed of ref's coming through.... as a result of abuse etc.

A possible solution I thought about was having more players as ref's. Bare with me on this one. Many league's these days, very few have midweek games and given most have odd numbers, there will usually be a team without a game on a saturday as well.

 

For example, Boardmasters means that Newquay and Godolphin do not play at home, and so lets assume they both had the weekend off. Out of the 30/40 players and staff of the combined sides, some will play for other sides, some will have other commitments but even 1 or 2 being available to ref a Trelawney game would be more use than harm?

Just a suggestion

Sounds like they were all catching covid that weekend 😏

[Bobjfh]

Every year - the same general thread on lack of officials and the reasons behind it, with heartfelt responses from all the above. 

But there has to be a dredger of realism - SWPL is governed by the NLS (not the League or CCFA) and has to abide by the rules set by the FA. Right or Wrong that requires appointed officials. 

Lower ‘recreational’ leagues are not, and as such have a degree of flexibility around their standard league rules.

A very simple solution to the shortage of officials would be a requirement of entry into said leagues that each club MUST have a suitably qualified referee - I believe there are ‘beginners type’ courses - CCFA supplies those for free and then all the club qualified  official go into a pot to Ref (would only be every other week) at another clubs match - so they do not officiate at their own club - and could be done geographically. 

Clubs that can’t / won’t supply leave the league - radical but needs addressing or we will see the same thread in years to come. 

You never know some may enjoy it and want to move to a more permanent refereeing role?

[silly billy]

Maybe the officials should start giving marks to the teams and management, If they get a poor score they either get fined, lose points, or something like that.

[Clubman]

On 03/09/2021 at 14:16, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Always remember a referee in my junior football days, he was a reverend. 

When you knew you had him for your game you absolutely did not swear or you were off.

No dissent or swearing in his games.

Another in those days would not tolerate bad tackles, you were off, there were no Argy bargy's in his games either.

If I was a referee no matter at what level I would give one warning for dissent. Do it again you would be off, it would soon stop all of this nonsense. 

I would also not tolerate abuse to the lino's, you'd be off for that as well.

I would never lip my mother or father, police or teacher...no way, my father would have sorted that out pronto!

Not the same today but players and managers would soon get the message...keep your opinions to yourself, with a thank you at the end of the game.

A lot of people need a lot of growing up in my world. 

Rev Ken Trunks?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Clubman said:

Rev Ken Trunks?

In one...lol.

[countyman]

On 03/09/2021 at 15:48, Bobjfh said:

Every year - the same general thread on lack of officials and the reasons behind it, with heartfelt responses from all the above. 

But there has to be a dredger of realism - SWPL is governed by the NLS (not the League or CCFA) and has to abide by the rules set by the FA. Right or Wrong that requires appointed officials. 

Lower ‘recreational’ leagues are not, and as such have a degree of flexibility around their standard league rules.

A very simple solution to the shortage of officials would be a requirement of entry into said leagues that each club MUST have a suitably qualified referee - I believe there are ‘beginners type’ courses - CCFA supplies those for free and then all the club qualified  official go into a pot to Ref (would only be every other week) at another clubs match - so they do not officiate at their own club - and could be done geographically. 

Clubs that can’t / won’t supply leave the league - radical but needs addressing or we will see the same thread in years to come. 

You never know some may enjoy it and want to move to a more permanent refereeing role?

Sorry but to me this is the wrong way round…. Lower leagues and smaller clubs simply do not have the volunteers even to adequately run their own clubs let alone provide a match official for others. To me the solution is for every SWPL and St Pirans side to provide a trainee official who then earns their crust in the lower leagues. If they don’t then they can be charged an admin fee direct to a fund enabling expenses or other incentives to be provided to club officials in Match days…. 3 officials every game gate entry fees, bars and clubhouses, paid players, team buses, lovely to see  but at grassroots …. And that’s NOT st Pirans or swpl…..we surely still want to see football?? No refs will mean no games and the death of proper grassroots football.

[baldy]

11 minutes ago, countyman said:

Sorry but to me this is the wrong way round…. Lower leagues and smaller clubs simply do not have the volunteers even to adequately run their own clubs let alone provide a match official for others. To me the solution is for every SWPL and St Pirans side to provide a trainee official who then earns their crust in the lower leagues. If they don’t then they can be charged an admin fee direct to a fund enabling expenses or other incentives to be provided to club officials in Match days…. 3 officials every game gate entry fees, bars and clubhouses, paid players, team buses, lovely to see  but at grassroots …. And that’s NOT st Pirans or swpl…..we surely still want to see football?? No refs will mean no games and the death of proper grassroots football.

Totally disagree.

[Martin Eddy]

On 03/09/2021 at 14:16, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Always remember a referee in my junior football days, he was a reverend. 

When you knew you had him for your game you absolutely did not swear or you were off.

No dissent or swearing in his games.

Another in those days would not tolerate bad tackles, you were off, there were no Argy bargy's in his games either.

If I was a referee no matter at what level I would give one warning for dissent. Do it again you would be off, it would soon stop all of this nonsense. 

I would also not tolerate abuse to the lino's, you'd be off for that as well.

I would never lip my mother or father, police or teacher...no way, my father would have sorted that out pronto!

Not the same today but players and managers would soon get the message...keep your opinions to yourself, with a thank you at the end of the game.

A lot of people need a lot of growing up in my world. 

Think you are talking about Reverend Trunks. 

Remember our combative central midfielder being fouled once, he got up and said Jesus christ. Rev. Trunks blew his whistle hard called him over and told him in no uncertain terms if he blasphemed like that again he would send him off

[We Two]

The point of referees administering the laws of the game, is explained  in full above.
Rev Trunks performance on the pitch was only possible because he used the laws of the game to impose his authority on the match he was officiating at.
His religious beliefs may have influenced his administration of the game, but he was only able to use the rules of football.
These same rules do in general still exist, it's just that they are not administered by some present day refs who,s performance is affected more in fear of the marking system, than it is of imposing the rules of the game.
Referees are paid according to their level of ability which in turn is hugely affected by the marking system, would any of the people who advocate large sums of money being paid to some mediocre players, blame refs who want to maintain their income in the present system ??

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

I dont believe for one minute that people take up refereeing for the money, they may well become accustomed to it after time but would always start their careers with the wish of enhancing the game and enjoying it.

So much is made of single incidents, argued about and dragged out for infinity when in reality not a lot happened, just let go, get up and get on with it for God's sake, its supposed to be for pleasure not discussed for a week.

[We Two]

£60 if you ref in the S.W.P.L. or £40 if you are a linesman, not money anyone who chooses to do the job would want to lose through being downgraded with poor marks given by biased club personel.
Looking forward to a new thread from you Older that doesen't involve referees, just keep it INTERESTING ? for a short period. 😜

[baldy]

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