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England v Czech Rep


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England through the group, not too convincing, but it feels like they are there as the tournament gets going. 

24 teams is too many, and the possibility of finishing third and going through has dulled some of the matches. Hopefully, now some of the chafe has been lost, and we are at straight knock out football, it should get iinteresting. Time for England players to step up the tempo now, but we certainly need more in attack. Don't think Harry Kane is at the level of Lukaku or Mbappe for example (but nobody else is at the moment).

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39 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I agree older sir. Some of the players look tired to me, especially Kane. Perhaps too much training and not enough actual matches due to Covid could be a factor ?

Not enough matches?? You are aware that they've fitted the matches in a shorter space of time? 

We're spoilt in this country by watching players from oversees who are far more technical then an English player. The best technical English players are Grealish, Foden and Sancho, you won't see them playing together under Southgate. 

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Being very patriotic I find it embarrassing to admit that I don't support the English football team . Prior to the Ericson era I tried to watch all the games , then it started to become a bit of a celebrity circus  with players , particularly one , who were given caps just to put bums on seats . After that  I haven't watched them and have no real interest in their results  I agree with you Darren , I think the influx of players from other countries has meant that British players are unable to play in the Premier league . As a result most of them are technically inferior to players from other nations .  I sometimes wish we were still in the pre Premiership days when teams played to win . Several young people I know have watched games   from the 70's on " the big match revisited " on ITV4  and say how much more attacking the game was then . Although not a spurs fan I always likes watching Cliff Jones their great Welsh winger  and I watch games now where the ball is near the penalty area , seconds later it's played back   and in the other penalty area without an opponent touching the ball , I then think ( I was like in modern speak ) would Cliff Jones have done that ? No, he'd have taken the full back on and either got a shot in or crossed it for the centre forward . One other thing that saddens me is that the media now seem to worship players who cheat by diving at every opportunity and the English team have one or two of those . Grealish is a very talented player  but does seem to go down easily .

 Also by all accounts ( according to the old boys on the allotment who've watched most of the games ) your opinion that English referees are poor compared to other nationalities is correct St. Darren .

Still haven't seen many swallows Older !!!!!!

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Anybody else looking forward to England v Germany on Tuesday, but dreading what is going to surround the match and build up? It's already started with the talk of the "Old Enemy" in the papers, there will inevitably be references to WW2 (and probably Brexit) in the tabloids and expect we'll have repeated singing of the Dambusters and Great Escape themes throughout the game itself. I like this England team and the manager, but find the nonsense that surrounds them a bit hard to bare.

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On 24/06/2021 at 09:48, Way Of The Park said:

Anybody else looking forward to England v Germany on Tuesday, but dreading what is going to surround the match and build up? It's already started with the talk of the "Old Enemy" in the papers, there will inevitably be references to WW2 (and probably Brexit) in the tabloids and expect we'll have repeated singing of the Dambusters and Great Escape themes throughout the game itself. I like this England team and the manager, but find the nonsense that surrounds them a bit hard to bare.

You encapsulate why I don't care about the England ream. The manager seems a decent sort, although had limited success at club level and too conservative in approach. England has some very good players, especially those in forward areas. The potential to do well is there but...

There's an elenent amongst the support that is at best nativist, at worst racist and violent. The endless drone of GSTQ, references to German bombers, 'No Surrender' chants, the booing of others' anthems and the frequent violence when abroad. Sorry I don't want to be associated with that.

Look at how, at most tournaments, some countries' fans bring a festival / party atmosphere to the event. Compare the insular English to even neighbouring Wales, Ireland and NI. [Too early to judge Scots fans at tournaments!! ] Either way, the contrast isn't a happy one 😞

Supporting England can be tricky! That said, the feel good factor from a win and good performance on Tuesday would cheer up millions - a good thing in these difficult times.

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19 minutes ago, Keith B said:

A good and interesting post. Sadly, as WOTP has said, this fixture brings out the worst in some people. What have we come to when sections of the supporters boo another Nations national anthem ? I despise this sort of attitude - it's racism and should be stopped. I'd rather see a fixture played behind close doors, rather than played with these yobs allowed in - or the match abandoned or called off. If these racist individuals get a game called off - it's a kind of victory to them. Let's hope that doesn't happen. 

 

My family are all Irish. The events some years ago at Lansdowne Road Dublin is at the heaviest end of the sickening behaviour of some England fans. The other stuff mentioned is lower level, but is unacceptable too. Most football fans, including those supporting England are good people. They need to reclaim their flag and for the decent majority to sideline the loud and offensive (but not as small as you think) minority. It's up to you England fans! I wish you well.

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To modify the phrase from  " A tale of two cities " by Charles Dickens , social media , the pandemic and the opportunity to make comments  on the BBC  website and similar . It has seen the best of people and the worst of people . At times its embarrassing to be British , how have we dropped to these levels ? Do the " experts " who decreed that discipline at home and in schools was wrong  regret their wisdom ?

My grandmother was Irish , " Oh really " no Murphy " 

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Easy to forget, most English people, like people elsewhere are good people. Let's not loose site of that! 

In ny youth I had a visceral hatred of all things Derby County. It was as big as supporting my own team (NFFC). Later I became sensible and realised they are sporting  rivals, not enemies. This is ENG v GER needs to be seen too. 

This is why I love the non-league / grassroots game in Cornwall and Devon. Enjoyable away days, nice hospitality usually from host club, you feel part of a club, you are welcomed and not seen as a 'revenue stream' principally. Friendships and relationships built across clubs. This is what football should be. The pro gane, let alone England is not this.

 

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This is a peculiar thing that I've noticed over the years . I know a few Norwich City fans who absolutely hate Ipswich  Town  and it's fans  . It's bizarre  travelling down to Ipswich on the train from Norwich when you reach South Norfolk and the Ipswich fans catch the train . They are only 20 miles from Norwich  which is their home county so logically should support Norwich City but are also 20 miles from Ipswich  . So I wonder  what the situation is in the workplace there with workmates supporting both teams . I think it's the same with most teams , there is always an element of hatred to their nearest rivals within some fans . Sadly some people take it too far 

In an ideal world all fans  would be like they were in the era of Bert Trautman  the German ex paratrooper who was a prisoner of war in England and after the war stayed here and played for Manchester city  in goal . In spite of what he represented during the war there was very little , if any , animosity shown toward him by the football community .

As regards the national anthems it always irritates me that very few English people respect their anthem . Harping back to my other sport motorcycle racing , all of the British riders stand proudly to our national anthem when they are on the top step of the podium ( which is most occasions ) as do the Athletes in their major events . Footballers seem to mumble along and seem to disrespect it  whereas other nations proudly sing out  . I think that their is some sort of connection in that football fans don't realise that they are also representing their country , and their bad behavior reflects on our  country 

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4 hours ago, fenman said:

This is a peculiar thing that I've noticed over the years . I know a few Norwich City fans who absolutely hate Ipswich  Town  and it's fans  . It's bizarre  travelling down to Ipswich on the train from Norwich when you reach South Norfolk and the Ipswich fans catch the train . They are only 20 miles from Norwich  which is their home county so logically should support Norwich City but are also 20 miles from Ipswich  . So I wonder  what the situation is in the workplace there with workmates supporting both teams . I think it's the same with most teams , there is always an element of hatred to their nearest rivals within some fans . Sadly some people take it too far 

In an ideal world all fans  would be like they were in the era of Bert Trautman  the German ex paratrooper who was a prisoner of war in England and after the war stayed here and played for Manchester city  in goal . In spite of what he represented during the war there was very little , if any , animosity shown toward him by the football community .

As regards the national anthems it always irritates me that very few English people respect their anthem . Harping back to my other sport motorcycle racing , all of the British riders stand proudly to our national anthem when they are on the top step of the podium ( which is most occasions ) as do the Athletes in their major events . Footballers seem to mumble along and seem to disrespect it  whereas other nations proudly sing out  . I think that their is some sort of connection in that football fans don't realise that they are also representing their country , and their bad behavior reflects on our  country 

Funnily enough on my Twitter account one of the most informed and astute followers is a Rams fan. In truth he totally stripped away the last vestiges of hostility towards his club. We both want to win the East Midlands derby, but respect each other as friends, as it should be.

As I said earlier my family are all Irish, so despite being born here I support the Irish teams (RoI mostly) football wise. Not much happening here for years to come now!

I have, in keeping with the above attitude to club football, no hatred for another nation - good and bad of every kind. However, I think you miss something regarding anthems. England doesn't have one, it uses GSTQ the *British* anthem. To the celtic nations this comes across as England = Britain and vice versa. The footballers do not represent GB, only England! Let's maybe hear Jerusalem instead?!

Currently the jingoism and sense of self importance - the its coning home mentality - are off putting. This English squad is devoid of inflated egos unlike the recent past, the manager is likeable, some great young talent...actually I'd be happy for them to do well. C'mon England ...-ish 😉

 

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This rivalry with Germany only comes from the English. If you read Didi Hammans book, the germans couldn't really care less about England. England fans still talk about  World Wars which were over 70 years ago and a World Cup win 55 years ago. 

As for the national anthem, its hardly an anthem about making you feel proud is it? A song about saving a family. Not exactly Bread of Heaven or flower of Scotland is it? 

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18 hours ago, Both Sides of the Tamar said:

You encapsulate why I don't care about the England ream. The manager seems a decent sort, although had limited success at club level and too conservative in approach. England has some very good players, especially those in forward areas. The potential to do well is there but...

There's an elenent amongst the support that is at best nativist, at worst racist and violent. The endless drone of GSTQ, references to German bombers, 'No Surrender' chants, the booing of others' anthems and the frequent violence when abroad. Sorry I don't want to be associated with that.

Look at how, at most tournaments, some countries' fans bring a festival / party atmosphere to the event. Compare the insular English to even neighbouring Wales, Ireland and NI. [Too early to judge Scots fans at tournaments!! ] Either way, the contrast isn't a happy one 😞

Supporting England can be tricky! That said, the feel good factor from a win and good performance on Tuesday would cheer up millions - a good thing in these difficult times.

I have been lucky enough to go to several World Cups and European Championships (France 98, Belgium/Netherlands 2000, Portugal 2004, Germany 2006) and found it a wonderful couple of weeks on planet football with fans from all nations mingling in bars, town squares and on trains. The one exception this were always the contingent following England, they often had a sneering attitude to the all other nation's fans, locals  and a badly misplaced sense of superiority. Always found it strange that one of the default songs was "No Surrender To The IRA"... which was frequently belted out from whichever faux Irish pub they had established a base in.

It is good that this discussion is being had. It shows that you can support your national team, and be passionate about it, without it tipping over into xenophobia and racism.

 

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1 hour ago, Keith B said:

God save the Queen. The Queen (or King) is head of the church of England - the Protestant Church (not the Roman Catholic church). The anthem or hymn, is about saving the Queen, not a family Darren. It dates back to the days when the monarch ruled the country, not parliament. 

It should change then shouldn't it? Hardly makes, the hair on the back of your neck stand up does it. 

I struggle to find anything to say thst I'm proud to be English. I'm English but wouldn't say I'm proud to be. 

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7 minutes ago, St Darren said:

It should change then shouldn't it? Hardly makes, the hair on the back of your neck stand up does it. 

I struggle to find anything to say thst I'm proud to be English. I'm English but wouldn't say I'm proud to be. 

Have to say that, especially since I moved away from Cornwall to live and work, I feel more Cornish (and sometimes find myself identifying as Cornish first, English second). I now get it regarding people who identify as Irish British, West Indian British, Asian British etc, etc. 

I am tremendously proud of being English though, our place in the world, our achievements, ideas, influences and people that we have produced. But loving a country ( as with people)also means that you can have honest discussions about what you don't like, their failings and what you would rather was changed.

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Bit of a complicated subject . As a nation ie. Great Britain  we've contributed a tremendous amount to mankind in terms of engineering , medical  advances etc. etc. . Unfortunately English people tend to want to take the credit for all this rather than giving the credit to the other countries . For example James Watt  is lauded as a great engineer and we are , or should be , proud of his contribution to the Industrial revolution but he was Scottish in which case he is regarded as a great British engineer . If he were English he would be regarded as a great English engineer . As I grow older I look at things in a less jaundiced way and realise we English do have a certain arrogance in that respect . Another peculuarity  as regards the Germans ,  is that many people of my generation dislike the French more than the Germans and the French dislike us more than they do the Germans .

As regards the national anthem I can see both sides to the argument and think that perhaps  we should have a different style of one . Possibly H.M.  the Queen would agree . Having said that many people in this country are so in awe of the U.S.A.  that perhaps the " Star spangled banner " might be more apt . 

Just to add a bit of humour to to my spiteful comment .

A friend of mine worked as an interpreter  for the E.U.  and lived in Belgium . Now Belgium , like Germany  , is a relatively new country  and has 2 languages Waloon and Flemish . Terry my friend used to catch a train to work and often caught the same train each morning . As a result he saw the same people each day . One of the ticket issuers would only converse with customers in Flemish or English . He had a hatred of anyone speaking Waloon and refused to serve them  unless they spoke Flemish or English . Terry said that when he was on duty it was a pantomime  because of this hatred  of anyone who was a Waloon and even though he knew what ticket they wanted  because he'd served them so often he would'nt  issue their ticket unless they spoke his language . Terry said that it was,nt  unusual  to see this dislike throughout Belgium . 

Dull day up here Older , still very few swallows or house martins .

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6 hours ago, St Darren said:

This rivalry with Germany only comes from the English. If you read Didi Hammans book, the germans couldn't really care less about England. England fans still talk about  World Wars which were over 70 years ago and a World Cup win 55 years ago. 

As for the national anthem, its hardly an anthem about making you feel proud is it? A song about saving a family. Not exactly Bread of Heaven or flower of Scotland is it? 

Or Trelawny 😉 As I said earlier England, for some reason, has appropriated the GB anthem. Why? They are not representing GB. 

3 hours ago, St Darren said:

It should change then shouldn't it? Hardly makes, the hair on the back of your neck stand up does it. 

I struggle to find anything to say thst I'm proud to be English. I'm English but wouldn't say I'm proud to be. 

In terms of literature, music, film, theatre, architecture, wider popular culture et al England is still hugely influential and punches above its weight. That said, look at the achievements and talents that Ireland offers for a 32 counties of just 5m people! 😉

 

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2 hours ago, Way Of The Park said:

Have to say that, especially since I moved away from Cornwall to live and work, I feel more Cornish (and sometimes find myself identifying as Cornish first, English second). I now get it regarding people who identify as Irish British, West Indian British, Asian British etc, etc. 

I am tremendously proud of being English though, our place in the world, our achievements, ideas, influences and people that we have produced. But loving a country ( as with people)also means that you can have honest discussions about what you don't like, their failings and what you would rather was changed.

Supeb post WOTP!  Nail hit firmly on the head! There are still many good things about England. 

One last question. Without getting into the county / Duchy / Nation debate - if there was a FIFA recognised Kernow team would you find it easier to support it?  I would! Maybe the St Piran flag not loaded with with the same symbolism?

Its been a great debate. Let's look forward to Tuesday. If players not too tied up in systems and tactical rigidity I think England can win. Its about playing to strengths. England's better players are at the top end of the park. 

 

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In a way yes, that's why my last contribution got back to Tuesday's game. I think Southgate's tactical approach could be key. Let's hope the midfield not stuffed with destructive 'holding' defensive midfielders! Some, like the great coach that  is Wayne Rooney [irony mode set to max], arguing for Rice, Philips and Henderson in the middle! That would be great if the game was sidewaysball!!

I'm happy to leave the broader discussion here. I think we had it because the England football team is a huge symbol of the English nation.

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32 minutes ago, Both Sides of the Tamar said:

In a way yes, that's why my last contribution got back to Tuesday's game. I think Southgate's tactical approach could be key. Let's hope the midfield not stuffed with destructive 'holding' defensive midfielders! Some, like the great coach that  is Wayne Rooney [irony mode set to max], arguing for Rice, Philips and Henderson in the middle! That would be great if the game was sidewaysball!!

I'm happy to leave the broader discussion here. I think we had it because the England football team is a huge symbol of the English nation.

Wayne Rooney is set to join the ranks of "great player, but crap coach." 

This tournament so far shaping up to be about the attacking full backs, Spinazzola of Italy, Dumfries of the Netherlands, Kimmich and Gozens of Germany and Guerrero of Portugal being a few notables. Wonder how missed Trent Alexander-Arnold could end up being for England.

My thinking though is that if Southgate does persist with the dual holding midfielders, then the handbrake has to come off the full backs and they should be encouraged to power forward.

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25 minutes ago, Way Of The Park said:

Wayne Rooney is set to join the ranks of "great player, but crap coach." 

This tournament so far shaping up to be about the attacking full backs, Spinazzola of Italy, Dumfries of the Netherlands, Kimmich and Gozens of Germany and Guerrero of Portugal being a few notables. Wonder how missed Trent Alexander-Arnold could end up being for England.

My thinking though is that if Southgate does persist with the dual holding midfielders, then the handbrake has to come off the full backs and they should be encouraged to power forward.

TAA would only be missed if Southgate would have played to his strengths!! 

Same as Kane, Kane works great with son at spurs, who does that role for England? 

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7 minutes ago, St Darren said:

TAA would only be missed if Southgate would have played to his strengths!! 

Same as Kane, Kane works great with son at spurs, who does that role for England? 

Therein lays the secret of good international coaching (where you have what you have, and can't dip into the transfer market). Finding the system, plan and combinations to utilise the players available to you. That is what Denmark and the Czech Rep have done superbly in the knockout stages so far. 

As if by magic, we are back with one of the subjects of this thread.

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27 minutes ago, Way Of The Park said:

Therein lays the secret of good international coaching (where you have what you have, and can't dip into the transfer market). Finding the system, plan and combinations to utilise the players available to you. That is what Denmark and the Czech Rep have done superbly in the knockout stages so far. 

As if by magic, we are back with one of the subjects of this thread.

The Danes and Czechs playing to their strengths. Have England got an identity or style? Sidewaysball will not win a thing!

And, here we are talking of full backs, when Tent A-A could be the one taking the tournament by storm. 

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29 minutes ago, Both Sides of the Tamar said:

The Danes and Czechs playing to their strengths. Have England got an identity or style? Sidewaysball will not win a thing!

And, here we are talking of full backs, when Tent A-A could be the one taking the tournament by storm. 

That makes it more frustrating from an England supporting point of view. Germany and Italy have both taken the brake off (with the consequence that they can be vulnerable at the back), and Belgium look vulnerable to pace through their centre backs. Southgate was (understandably enough) playing it cautious to get through the group, but we now need to see what we have in attack. Especially against a German side that are probably not one of their vintage sides, but carry a threat in attack. Could be a moment similar to England v Netherlands in Euro 96.

Get past Germany, and you can see a route to the final via matches against  Denmark, Czech Rep. Sweden or Ukraine. Lot of chickens being counted though.

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