County FA announce Senior Cup change

[Dave Deacon]

NEW COUNTY CUP STRUCTURE

A new structure will come into effect for the 2021/22 season.

 

 

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In March 2020 Cornwall FA canvassed all Saturday clubs to gather their views regarding a new County Cup structure.  In particular clubs opinions were sought on a proposal that the Senior Cup should only be competed for by clubs at Steps 5 and 6 of the National League System (NLS) with a new Intermediate Cup being introduced for the teams of the St Piran, East Cornwall Premier and Cornwall Combination Leagues.

Of the clubs that responded 71% were in favour of the change and it was intended to introduce the change for the 2020/21 season in line with the NLS structural changes.  However, due to the pandemic, the change was put on hold.

We can now confirm that the changes to the cup structure described above will come into effect for the 2021/22 season.

As with all County  Cup competitions, the new structure will remain under continual review but no further changes are intended for at least 3 years.

[Ian Pethick]

What is the thinking behind this change, and is it the clubs driving it? The Senior Cup is one of the few county cup competitions that is still taken seriously, would hate to think that games involving the big boys (and potential for giant killings) are lost to the St Piran/Combo and ECPL clubs.

 

[The Town Man]

2 hours ago, Dave Deacon said:

NEW COUNTY CUP STRUCTURE

A new structure will come into effect for the 2021/22 season.

 

 

Shares

In March 2020 Cornwall FA canvassed all Saturday clubs to gather their views regarding a new County Cup structure.  In particular clubs opinions were sought on a proposal that the Senior Cup should only be competed for by clubs at Steps 5 and 6 of the National League System (NLS) with a new Intermediate Cup being introduced for the teams of the St Piran, East Cornwall Premier and Cornwall Combination Leagues.

Of the clubs that responded 71% were in favour of the change and it was intended to introduce the change for the 2020/21 season in line with the NLS structural changes.  However, due to the pandemic, the change was put on hold.

We can now confirm that the changes to the cup structure described above will come into effect for the 2021/22 season.

As with all County  Cup competitions, the new structure will remain under continual review but no further changes are intended for at least 3 years.

71% support is pretty good but it is surprising that the step 7 and below sides voted for this. Part of the attraction of this competition surely is a chance to put one over the big clubs and at least have a big home gate perhaps when one of them comes to town.  (Think St Mawgan's prospective visit by the F-Troop during last season's competition.)

[Sticker Forever]

Thought this was one of those April Fools Day jokes until I looked at the calendar and it said May 19th!? Agree with Town man, can’t see how 21% of clubs would have voted for this let alone 71%! Everybody likes a giant killing surely? Like saying the FA Cup is only open to Premier league and Championship clubs? Keep the new cup maybe, only a few more games, and the St.Piran, East Cornwall and Combo are all short on numbers so would work but leave the old Senior Cup as it is, a great old competition 

[JonColenzo]

100% agree, we certainly didn’t vote for change, surely everyone loves a giantkilling? It’s like saying the FA Cup will only be Premier League and Championship teams. (Sorry Sticker Forever just realised you’ve said exactly the same!) Don’t change a great old traditional, historic cup competition.

[Bobjfh]

I agree with the sentiment above, as has been a fantastic cup for many years but there has to be a degree of realism. By splitting the cups - every team entering has a chance, there has been an odd ‘giant killing’ but when was the last time a combo team got to a semi / final - without a real fluke of the draw? With so many fixtures and clubs having to pay to enter, pay for officials and relatively small crowds up until the end of the cup and small reward (other than obviously winning the cup) - the current structure makes little sense, IMO. It is a ‘senior cup’ so should be for ‘senior’ clubs which by definition is Step 6 and upwards - they are the clubs who were tied into greater restrictions under Covid as not being ‘recreational’ sport. The Junior Cup on the other hand is probably the hardest to win where any team on a run can win. 

[claret&blue]

Stupid decision, I wonder which clubs voted for it and if they have ever been in the combo or ECPL, was always something to look forward to when you played in those leagues a chance to play against a top club. Which side wouldn’t want a chance of being drawn away against Falmouth in front of the new f troop ? 

[GRTourist]

Does this not bring the Senior Cup in line with others in the country though (not that I'm suggesting what's right for other regions is necessarily what's right for Cornwall)?   In the Middlesex Senior Cup (which the club I volunteer play in) only clubs at Step 5 upwards are eligible, then there is also a Premier Cup for clubs at Step 6 and 7, and an Intermediate Cup for those below that.  The same is the case where I live in Surrey.

[Paul]

From a supporters view, i think its a poor decision. As a supporter of St Blazey, the early cup draws against sides you dont play from one year to another like Probus, Illogan etc is part of the charm of cup football. 

Then you have the Illogan win at St Blazey years ago. A big upset and a great cup tie. Not that i was over the moon with it but surly thats what so called smaller clubs want to do on their big draw days. If i was playing thats surly the draws youd want against the likes of St Blazey, Bodmin, Falmouth, St Austell to name a few. 

Isnt the new set up just a glorified league cup set up? 

 

[Mike Odgers]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

From a supporters view, i think its a poor decision. As a supporter of St Blazey, the early cup draws against sides you dont play from one year to another like Probus, Illogan etc is part of the charm of cup football. 

Then you have the Illogan win at St Blazey years ago. A big upset and a great cup tie. Not that i was over the moon with it but surly thats what so called smaller clubs want to do on their big draw days. If i was playing thats surly the draws youd want against the likes of St Blazey, Bodmin, Falmouth, St Austell to name a few. 

Isnt the new set up just a glorified league cup set up? 

 

Absolutely agree Paul.  There will no difference  between the  WCP (SWPL) Cup and The Cornwall Senior CUup.

I was all excited with a new venue at St.Mawgan before the Covid restrictions.

 

[RAPPO]

Must admit when I was at Falmouth I enjoyed the trips to the East Cornwall and Combo clubs who you could tell were well up for having a crack at us!! Remember the trip to Antony Mike!? I didnt even know where it was at the time and it seemed the whole village came out to insult us in the rain! Posers, big time Charlie’s, they ain’t that good lads, until we won 10-0 but that’s what it’s all about I think! Remember East Cornwall League Nanpean who were a Jerry Solomon bobble away from beating Falmouth in the final!!  Hope the County FA keep the magic of this cup but still introduce the Intermediate cup that would be a nice one to win from any team from those 3 leagues 👍⚽️🏆

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Assuming all clubs had an input and this is what they wanted...get on with it in my world.

No changes planned for 3 years, so just wait for the opportunity to possibly change it back in 3 years time.

I did enjoy the our cup runs though against the "big boys"

[bighairydave]

Does this now give Truro the chance to re-enter?

[Ian Pethick]

5 hours ago, Paul said:

From a supporters view, i think its a poor decision. As a supporter of St Blazey, the early cup draws against sides you dont play from one year to another like Probus, Illogan etc is part of the charm of cup football. 

Then you have the Illogan win at St Blazey years ago. A big upset and a great cup tie. Not that i was over the moon with it but surly thats what so called smaller clubs want to do on their big draw days. If i was playing thats surly the draws youd want against the likes of St Blazey, Bodmin, Falmouth, St Austell to name a few. 

Isnt the new set up just a glorified league cup set up? 

 

With several clubs now in the Western League, would have thought that it would be even more reason for the lesser teams

wanting to stick it to them.

There was a thread on the Cornwall Football Memories site recently about Perranwell  holding reigning Western League champions Liskeard to a goalless draw at Lux Park in the 1988/89 Senior Cup, and only losing 2-1 in the replay. Those sort of games won't be possible now.

41 minutes ago, bighairydave said:

Does this now give Truro the chance to re-enter?

Would love to see that. Doubt that Paul Wotton (ex Premier League pro) and his side (most of whom have come through professional academies) would have experienced the delights of some of the Combo and ECPL grounds before.

[Dave Deacon]

1 hour ago, bighairydave said:

Does this now give Truro the chance to re-enter?

Closed to only Step 5 & 6 clubs 

[tizcornish]

l remember back in the late sixties and at time l was playing for East Cornwall side St. Mellion we were drawn away to 

Penzance. St. Mellion were at the top of the East Cornwall league, whilst Penzance were on top the South Western league

we went down their place and came away 4-1 winners, with John Jefford scoring 3 Bill King 1, along trip down there and a great

day out for the village of St. Mellion and their supporters. Hasten to say that we were drawn away to Truro in the next round and 

lost 5-0.

 

[Steve Carpenter]

This was all debated back in February of 2020: 

From memory, about 50 clubs voted for the change.

 

3 hours ago, bighairydave said:

Does this now give Truro the chance to re-enter?

The reserve side of any club playing at Step 4 or above can enter providing they are in a qualifying league which in reality means the SWPL as reserves sides aren't permitted any higher than Step 6. 

 

 

[Dave Deacon]

Indeed touched on via the forum with a quick poll, but with very different end thought as almost three times the number wanted to keep things as they are!  

Yes - 12    ;      No - keep it as it is   35

[Steve Carpenter]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

Indeed touched on via the forum with a quick poll, but with very different end thought as almost three times the number wanted to keep things as they are!  

Yes - 12    ;      No - keep it as it is   35

Ahh but how many of those were club officials Dave.  The clubs were given about a month to discuss it internally before their responses were required.

[Dave Deacon]

That was the thing Steve - it was a quick and easy poll to the footballing public and so no idea whatsoever of the make-up of those that responded. That's always the case for a poll or survey done via the forum 

Worryingly though since your announcement earlier in the week,  I've had dialogue with two club officials who have told me they cannot even recall receiving the original email from the county!

I understand from one of them that the email went out to clubs on the 14th February 2020. Normally, with this sort of email request, he would report to his club before responding. He never did this because he cannot recall its receipt. That person has gone back to the county to query the matter and has been told he responded and voted for the change! He has no recognition of this, yet the county have proof of a vote lodged by him!

He is adamant he would not have done it without his club's input, and personally he is against the idea of the new format and so he is at a loss as to how his vote has been logged in favour of it!

Leads me to wonder if clubs realised what they were voting for?

[The Green Blaythorne]

We are also another club that cannot find this email. Charley Farley (secretary) discusses every correspondence with myself and the committee, a decision like this would have not been forgotten or pushed to one side without debate. 

[Steve Carpenter]

34 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Leads me to wonder if clubs realised what they were voting for?

There were two options.  The one that was voted for and the status quo.

Dear Club Secretary

 Following the restructuring of the Leagues at the end of last season and with an eye on future changes as a result of ongoing promotions to the Western League,  the Rules and Competitions Working Group have undertaken a review of the Saturday County Cup Competitions. 

 As a result of this review, the Working Group is of the opinion that a change to the current cup structure is necessary to more accurately reflect the increased range of levels in which clubs participate in order to maintain the credibility and integrity of the various competitions. 

No change is considered necessary to the Junior Cup.  However, from the start of next season the clubs participating in the Senior Cup would be drawn from four levels (Western League, South West Peninsula League, St Piran League and East Cornwall Premier/Cornwall Combination Leagues) and the Working Group is of the opinion that this is not sustainable or credible.   The proposed solution to this situation is to introduce a third County Cup to be competed for by the membership of the St Piran League, the East Cornwall Premier League and the Cornwall Combination League with the Senior Cup being competed for by clubs in the Western League and the South West Peninsula League.  Additionally, it is believed that serious consideration should be given to the Senior Cup being played mid-week under lights.

Although many factors have been taken into consideration, we strongly believe that prior to any final decision being made it is vital that your opinion is also considered.  Please consider this proposal carefully within your club and complete the short survey (click on link below) before Monday 2nd March 2020.

The link was to a surveymonkey survey (now closed - obviously).

[Dave Deacon]

To ensure the correct outcome of what the county football folk really wanted, perhaps the county should have only carried through the result on the proviso that say there was a two-thirds response!

[S Abbo]

Sounds dodgy !!!

 

[Martin Eddy]

Remember back in the 80’s going to St. Blazey with Holmans. Wayne Brown scored from the centre circle and until 10 minutes from the end were still winning 1 nil. We lost 3-1 in the end but what an experience 

[Ronaldo]

3 hours ago, Steve Carpenter said:

Ahh but how many of those were club officials Dave.  The clubs were given about a month to discuss it internally before their responses were required.

If the ( letter ) was sent out on the 14 th February and had to be in by 2 nd March that’s just over 2 weeks !

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

To ensure the correct outcome of what the county football folk really wanted, perhaps the county should have only carried through the result on the proviso that say there was a two-thirds response!

We don't do that for a general election!

[Dave Deacon]

53 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

We don't do that for a general election!

This is more important! 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

43 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

This is more important! 

MMMmmmmm!

[Steve Carpenter]

9 hours ago, Ronaldo said:

If the ( letter ) was sent out on the 14 th February and had to be in by 2 nd March that’s just over 2 weeks !

Apologies, my mistake.  I should have checked my notes instead of replying from memory.

[a little bit of a dinho]

On 20/05/2021 at 19:00, Dave Deacon said:

That was the thing Steve - it was a quick and easy poll to the footballing public and so no idea whatsoever of the make-up of those that responded. That's always the case for a poll or survey done via the forum 

Worryingly though since your announcement earlier in the week,  I've had dialogue with two club officials who have told me they cannot even recall receiving the original email from the county!

I understand from one of them that the email went out to clubs on the 14th February 2020. Normally, with this sort of email request, he would report to his club before responding. He never did this because he cannot recall its receipt. That person has gone back to the county to query the matter and has been told he responded and voted for the change! He has no recognition of this, yet the county have proof of a vote lodged by him!

He is adamant he would not have done it without his club's input, and personally he is against the idea of the new format and so he is at a loss as to how his vote has been logged in favour of it!

Leads me to wonder if clubs realised what they were voting for?

 

Even a single wrongly cast vote completely invalidates the integrity of the survey results. The FA should have been moved to review their process after the findings above.

Can anyone from the county FA make comment on what was done to ensure the integrity of the results given that there is evidence of a wrongly cast vote?

It's clear sentiment is overwhelmingly against the changes. Looks as though something has gone seriously wrong here and the FA need to be held to account. I still haven't met anyone in support of the changes.

[Dave Deacon]

2 hours ago, a little bit of a dinho said:

I still haven't met anyone in support of the changes.

Me too - I've mentioned it to ten or so and still no one categorically states that they voted for the change!

Having said that, as we know Falmouth Town said yes to the change, but I'm not so sure that was what they intended! 

[mattelot]

On 20/05/2021 at 10:38, RAPPO said:

Must admit when I was at Falmouth I enjoyed the trips to the East Cornwall and Combo clubs who you could tell were well up for having a crack at us!! Remember the trip to Antony Mike!? I didnt even know where it was at the time and it seemed the whole village came out to insult us in the rain! Posers, big time Charlie’s, they ain’t that good lads, until we won 10-0 but that’s what it’s all about I think! Remember East Cornwall League Nanpean who were a Jerry Solomon bobble away from beating Falmouth in the final!!  Hope the County FA keep the magic of this cup but still introduce the Intermediate cup that would be a nice one to win from any team from those 3 leagues 👍⚽️🏆

Rocky has fond memories  of towns trip to nanpean years ago mate.😁🤣😂

[RAPPO]

So funny mate!! Often think of that day and crack up! Rocky what a legend! Used to love his horse linament and crisp and dry oil combo in the winter Nige!! Best days ever mate!! 👍⚽️🏆

[Ian Pethick]

Recommend the May 2021 edition of the Cornish Soccer. Good article on the "giant killing" exploits of Gunmislake in the 1979/80 and 1980/81 Senior Cups, when a Kelvin Howe inspired side reached the semi and quarter final stages. Who knows how they would have fared if Kelvin hadn't signed for Plymouth Argyle ,and missed the 6-1 defeat to Newquay in the 80/81 quarter final.

Am I right in saying that Gunnislake were in the P&D league at the time?