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referees in the Premiership


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Fenman - I wonder to what extent the fact that the referees know they have VAR as a back up, relaxes them a bit, perhaps thinking 'well if I miss something VAR will reveal it and correct the situation

Looking at it from another perspective. I think that these Referees are under the spotlight a lot more now because of var, dammed if they do dammed if they don’t. And as for waiting to put the flag up

We all see things differently depending on our position.  We are not standing where the referee is, so we can't really comment on the decision a referee gives...only our own opinion depending whe

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20 minutes ago, St Darren said:

Shall we bring this up again after the fiasco of the referees making the var decisions last night?? 

Mmm - I'm afraid last night there was one or two bad decisions I thought. Two red cards - one of which was iffy at best, the other should not have been a red.

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2 minutes ago, Keith B said:

Mmm - I'm afraid last night there was one or two bad decisions I thought. Two red cards - one of which was iffy at best, the other should not have been a red.

And the offside and penalty at Utd? 

The referees are trying to find a reason to disallow a goal.

 

They're all awful and uncompetent and cover each other up in their little club! 

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3 minutes ago, St Darren said:

And the offside and penalty at Utd? 

The referees are trying to find a reason to disallow a goal.

 

They're all awful and uncompetent and cover each other up in their little club! 

I must admit that at times it does seem as though the system is trying to find reasons not to allow goals. However, referees are under the FA's microscope constantly, but it's to ensure competence and fairness.  

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43 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I must admit that at times it does seem as though the system is trying to find reasons not to allow goals. However, referees are under the FA's microscope constantly, but it's to ensure competence and fairness.  

Bloody hell, they're not going the right way about it then with their inconsistencies are they

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3 hours ago, St Darren said:

Bloody hell, they're not going the right way about it then with their inconsistencies are they

And here human nature comes in. We see it one way, someone else sees it another. Referees obviously must be given leeway and as has been said elsewhere, at pitch level it looks different and the ref's eye view can be obscured by other moving players.

VAR was meant to accurately assist the on pitch official over close calls etc,. The problem comes when the VAR official sees it differently again. Personally I believe and have said before, VAR should be scrapped - goal line cameras should be kept obviously and, let the on pitch referee do his job. It would assist him if replays were not allowed. The poor sod has one chance only and no replay to assist him. They do a damn good job in my book and are right 98% of the time - lets leave them alone to do it !

Inconsistencies will always exist because everyone sees things differently. Ask any police officer who has ever had to ask a number of people what they saw - he will get many different opinions, which isn't helpful but, that's life and human beings.

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1 hour ago, Keith B said:

And here human nature comes in. We see it one way, someone else sees it another. Referees obviously must be given leeway and as has been said elsewhere, at pitch level it looks different and the ref's eye view can be obscured by other moving players.

VAR was meant to accurately assist the on pitch official over close calls etc,. The problem comes when the VAR official sees it differently again. Personally I believe and have said before, VAR should be scrapped - goal line cameras should be kept obviously and, let the on pitch referee do his job. It would assist him if replays were not allowed. The poor sod has one chance only and no replay to assist him. They do a damn good job in my book and are right 98% of the time - lets leave them alone to do it !

Inconsistencies will always exist because everyone sees things differently. Ask any police officer who has ever had to ask a number of people what they saw - he will get many different opinions, which isn't helpful but, that's life and human beings.

Correct. 

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By the way, Stuart Atwell is the worst!! 

Check out the penalty he didn't give to City this evening despite having multiple camera angles. 

He should never have been allowed to referee after the ghost goal he gave in a Reading match a number of years ago 

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Just to show that I'm not blinkered in my support of Wolves I thought that Luize 's red card last night along with the second Southampton sending off was harsh . The reasons that the sending off's was justified is straight from a Marx Brothers script . If a player accidently fouls a opposition player in the penalty area it's a red card and a penalty  but if he deliberately takes him out it's a penalty and a yellow card . Did something get lost in translation ?

Also the Southampton manager has now said that he doesn't want Mason or Dean involved with any more Southampton games . Will he be fined like Nuno ?

I'm not anti referees , their job is difficult on the field as well as the political shananigans behind the scenes  in their organisations .This VAR fiasco has made their job even more difficult , almost impossible  . You wonder how any rational person with an insight into the relatively simple game like football could come up with  the handball according to sleeve length , offside by a heel even though you are near the corner flag facing away from goal . The instruction not to flag offside until the phase of play is finished etc. etc.  Managers jobs are on the line , witness the Chelsea fiasco with Lampard  , so why aren't managers asked what they want  from VAR? Surly F.I.F.A.  are capable of holding a discussion with the people who matter when they alter the rules .

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10 hours ago, fenman said:

Just to show that I'm not blinkered in my support of Wolves I thought that Luize 's red card last night along with the second Southampton sending off was harsh . The reasons that the sending off's was justified is straight from a Marx Brothers script . If a player accidently fouls a opposition player in the penalty area it's a red card and a penalty  but if he deliberately takes him out it's a penalty and a yellow card . Did something get lost in translation ?

Also the Southampton manager has now said that he doesn't want Mason or Dean involved with any more Southampton games . Will he be fined like Nuno ?

I'm not anti referees , their job is difficult on the field as well as the political shananigans behind the scenes  in their organisations .This VAR fiasco has made their job even more difficult , almost impossible  . You wonder how any rational person with an insight into the relatively simple game like football could come up with  the handball according to sleeve length , offside by a heel even though you are near the corner flag facing away from goal . The instruction not to flag offside until the phase of play is finished etc. etc.  Managers jobs are on the line , witness the Chelsea fiasco with Lampard  , so why aren't managers asked what they want  from VAR? Surly F.I.F.A.  are capable of holding a discussion with the people who matter when they alter the rules .

Political shananigans ? Did I miss something, I've not heard of that fenman.

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On 04/02/2021 at 08:32, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

VAR - the ruination of football. 

Is really interesting how badly VAR has been received in football. Video technology has been pretty much been seen as enhancing the game in cricket, rugby union, rugby league and American football. Would guess that this is because these are all sports with natural breaks within play.

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They could take a leaf out of Crickets book. Only allow VAR to be used following an appeal for review from one of the managers. Ten seconds to claim a VAR review after a referees decision, 2/3 reviews per team, per game, if your review is successful it is retained if overturned you lose it. When you run out of reviews it’s all down to the referee, as it is with umpires.

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22 hours ago, fenman said:

One or two referees have mentioned in their biographies about the  pressure from within the referees  ruling body . Mentions of favouritism  toward certain referees , that kind of thing Keith .

Ah thanks for that fenman. Oh dear that doesn't sound good. It would be interesting to read one or two referee's assessor's reports.

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2 hours ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

They could take a leaf out of Crickets book. Only allow VAR to be used following an appeal for review from one of the managers. Ten seconds to claim a VAR review after a referees decision, 2/3 reviews per team, per game, if your review is successful it is retained if overturned you lose it. When you run out of reviews it’s all down to the referee, as it is with umpires.

Now that is a good idea.

It cannot go on as it is...it is a farce.

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1 hour ago, St Darren said:

Shall we discuss again??  This time we'll talk about Lee Mason and Mike Dean, remember that VAR still has a human running it. Albeit incompetent ones

Agree with you Darren, but the players don’t help matters do they? Almost as if they are taking the mick as well! 

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32 minutes ago, St Darren said:

But the var official should be there to pick that up shouldnt they? 

True. It would also help if a few of them had played the game!

In effect the players are cheating, and they’ll continue whilst they’re getting away with it!

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22 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

True. It would also help if a few of them had played the game!

In effect the players are cheating, and they’ll continue whilst they’re getting away with it!

They realise how poor the officials are.  There's no defending them now. Dean watched it about 20 times and still came to the conclusion that it was deliberate. 

They gave no one to answer to. No one sees their match reports 

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On 06/02/2021 at 21:09, Dave Deacon said:

True. It would also help if a few of them had played the game!

In effect the players are cheating, and they’ll continue whilst they’re getting away with it!

That's an interesting point Dave. It would be interesting to know how many professional referees had played football - not necessarily at pro level, but at any level for a proper club. I'm sure most would have surely. I think I simply assumed that they all would have played the game at some level.

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1 hour ago, Keith B said:

That's an interesting point Dave. It would be interesting to know how many professional referees had played football - not necessarily at pro level, but at any level for a proper club. I'm sure most would have surely. I think I simply assumed that they all would have played the game at some level.

I think a few years ago most would have, but today with the money floating around it could be a career choice now.

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1 minute ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

I think a few years ago most would have, but today with the money floating around it could be a career choice now.

I guess that could be true for some older - especially as jobs are fewer now than in our day. When I left school, the papers had pages full of jobs. You could try one one week and if you didn't like it, you could try another next week. (That was for those of us that were not going to be brain surgeons, or rocket scientists). Times have changed. 

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The book I was trying hard to remember , that talked about the internal wrangling within  the referees organisation PGMOL is by Mark Halsey . Very interesting insight into the game from a referees perspective . its called Added time .

I think Paul Merson wrote his and is was called " Addled Times " 

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Again VAR is in the news , this time from a Wolves supporters point of view it worked in our favour .. It's still difficult to understand the mind set of the rule makers , with these new rules on handball , offside etc. .

As regards the comparison with cricket and rugby and a VAR system I think we have to take into consideration that football is a different game in that the players have very little discipline compared with the other 2 sports . Cricket and rugby are far more disciplined in accepting decisions , whereas the majority of footballers will argue about most decisions even when they know they are wrong , and openly abuse officials . I think rather than conjure up  silly amendments to rules like shirt sleeve length for hand ball ,  accidental hand ball and so on , they would be far better being stricter on cheating  by diving , clamping down on abuse of officials and the surrounding of officials . The authorities seem to me to be afraid of enforcing discipline , we've had RESPECT  thrown at us for years now , what effect has it had ?  answers on a pin head please .

  

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On 08/02/2021 at 15:09, fenman said:

The book I was trying hard to remember , that talked about the internal wrangling within  the referees organisation PGMOL is by Mark Halsey . Very interesting insight into the game from a referees perspective . its called Added time .

I think Paul Merson wrote his and is was called " Addled Times " 

Very apt in his case 🙂.

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The problem with the laws in football is that they are open to interpretation rather than being the same all the time. Such as a foul or a handball. And now they seem to have brought offside into that as well now. 

At the end of the day, the referees are still rubbish. 

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2 hours ago, St Darren said:

The problem with the laws in football is that they are open to interpretation rather than being the same all the time. Such as a foul or a handball. And now they seem to have brought offside into that as well now. 

At the end of the day, the referees are still rubbish. 

Oh now Darren - you know you don't mean it 😊.

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How refreshing was it last night to watch the Liverpool game with competent officials and no over analysing of var. One quick look at an incident and done. If it wasn't clear the officials got it wrong they just got on with it, exactly how var should be. 

Also the referee was in full control of the game. 

The incompetent officials in this country could take a long look at that and react accordingly 

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39 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Where did the officials come from Darren?

Not 100% sure where they were from but the referee hgadnt had a lot of champions league experience.  But it was great not to hang around for VAR, there was an incident when Liverpool had a goal disallowed for the ball going out of play, it was really really tight, but the linesman flagged it off, they had a quick look and deemed it over the line abs got on with it.  In this country we'd have been drawing lines and checking if loads, but in Europe they go with clear and obvious error!! 

But back to the ref, he was good, handed out a few ywllows and all deserved but the game went at a fast pace because he wasn't delaying anything from happening. 

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8 hours ago, St Darren said:

How refreshing was it last night to watch the Liverpool game with competent officials and no over analysing of var. One quick look at an incident and done. If it wasn't clear the officials got it wrong they just got on with it, exactly how var should be. 

Also the referee was in full control of the game. 

The incompetent officials in this country could take a long look at that and react accordingly 

I like the post Darren. However your last paragraph is unjust in my opinion. Not all the officials in this country are incompetent. It's VAR that must be scrapped. As you say, the match must be allowed to flow.

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25 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I like the post Darren. However your last paragraph is unjust in my opinion. Not all the officials in this country are incompetent. It's VAR that must be scrapped. As you say, the match must be allowed to flow.

Don't forget it's officials who are running var. When there is a tight offside they are looking for anything to give it offside, in Europe they have a quick look and make a quick decision. 

OK, not all are incompetent, just the vast majority

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42 minutes ago, Keith B said:

However your last paragraph is unjust in my opinion. Not all the officials in this country are incompetent. It's VAR that must be scrapped. As you say, the match must be allowed to flow.

It would appear though Keith that the more familiar they have become with VAR, the impression is that they have become lazy almost knowing that the decision will be made elsewhere! 

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As with cricket Dave.

International Umpires do not make decisions on even the most obvious run-outs, stumpings, no balls any more as they know that the third umpire will do the job for them. As with football, the poor sods at lower levels have to make the decisions without any help. Strange how the top level refs/umpires seem to need the help, but the rest don't.

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18 hours ago, djs said:

As with cricket Dave.

International Umpires do not make decisions on even the most obvious run-outs, stumpings, no balls any more as they know that the third umpire will do the job for them. As with football, the poor sods at lower levels have to make the decisions without any help. Strange how the top level refs/umpires seem to need the help, but the rest don't.

To be fair to the umpires, pre 3rd umpire they needed three sets of eyes to check no balls, wickets/stumpings and catches all in different directions in less than a second. And they had to do this for 540+ balls per day over five days, often in the burning sun (England excepted of course). Football referees are softies by comparison.

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7 hours ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

To be fair to the umpires, pre 3rd umpire they needed three sets of eyes to check no balls, wickets/stumpings and catches all in different directions in less than a second. And they had to do this for 540+ balls per day over five days, often in the burning sun (England excepted of course). Football referees are softies by comparison.

Correct Bruegel (as usual). The overall quality of our umpires is excellent.

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