referees in the Premiership

[fenman]

I'm going to be controversial here . One or two people have commented  about the poor standard of refereeing in the Premiership . Having the greatest of respect for referees , I've often disagreed with the comments . However I'm fairly rapidly changing my mind about some of them . I'm not childish enough to say that some are  cheats or part of any conspiracy favouring the "big 6 "  but some of their decisions along with the haphazard use of V.A.R.  is costing some teams valuable points . I know all of us can give examples of their favourite team being victims of bad decisions , equally ,some honest fans can say that they have been fortunate with bad refereeing . 

Being a lifelong Wolves fan , I feel , along with their other fans that they have been hard done by as a result of peculiar refereeing this season . To mention 2 or 3 examples ,

Traore sprints into the penalty area , a clumsy tackle means he is tripped , not intentionally probably , but a clear foul , no penalty is given but he's booked for diving . Another game ,  Max Kilman a defender , is struck on the arm  by a shot from about a yard away whilst running , a penalty is given . The TV  pundits are appalled by the decision . In the game against Aston Villa  a large number of players , 10 I think , were booked by the referee , who made his 3000 booking of his career  during the game . The majority of the players booked were Villa players , booked for  good tackles by a whistle happy ref . Nuno Santos complains about Mason , a referee in another game , telling the FA that he doesn't want Mason refereeing  any more games involving his team because he ruins games  for both teams by his petty  whistle blowing  , and the way he treats players .  He has been fined by the FA  for this .Strangely since then , accepting the fact that Wolves played badly in their game with WBA  , 2 penalties were given against them , one for a foul outside the area , but were denied a penalty for a clear handball . As a result they lost  the game . As I said they played badly so you can't say that deserved to win , but when a team is in a bad run of form the last thing they want is poor refereeing making the situation worse .

As I said I'm quoting incidents from Wolves games , but other fans can quote  incidents that  have cost their teams  games . BUT  don't mention the Harry McGuire  wrestling the player to the ground , how did the referee or the VAR team miss that one ?

Brief spell of snow up here Older , but it soon went . Looks like Penryn is in for another deluge , you'll have to buy yourself a water pump to drain the pitch soon . 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

24 minutes ago, fenman said:

Brief spell of snow up here Older , but it soon went . Looks like Penryn is in for another deluge , you'll have to buy yourself a water pump to drain the pitch soon . 

Water, water everywhere and not a chance to work on the pitch for a good few days now.

But...a relatively relaxing few weeks I s'pose. 

[Bruegel the Elder]

Fenman, I’m sure you’re right about Referees bias, not that I think that it’s other than subconscious. As for VAR, that’s going nowhere until it’s superseded. I’ve said before that some day soon (probably not in my lifetime) the game will be controlled by drones. Each floodlight will house an array of cameras covering the whole pitch, all of the time and passing every infringement to the refodrone along with continual ball tracking. The drone will follow the play about 3 meters up and whistle to stop play. There will, of course, be no appeal! Whether this will make the game better or worse I don’t know, but it will certainly be fairer.

There you go, that’s my conspiracy theory and I’m sticking to it! It’s all a diabolical plan by FIFA!

[St Darren]

They're all awful. The inconsistency is worse. Var doesn't massively help matters! 

Referees have been poor for years but this crop seem to be the worst. 

They would have lost other jobs due to their performances.  And don't get me started on Stuart Atwell

 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Keith B said:

Fenman - I wonder to what extent the fact that the referees know they have VAR as a back up, relaxes them a bit, perhaps thinking 'well if I miss something VAR will reveal it and correct the situation' ? I'm still of the mind that generally, refs do a very difficult job, and do it very well most of the time.

Absolutely. 

[fenman]

Totally agree with you both , generally speaking , BUT  I wonder if the elevation to the top league in the world  brings  out the feelings of self importance with a few ( and I mean a few ) of them . Having read Mark Halsey's book and another top referee's book , and I can't remember whose it was , perhaps the ex. policeman , it is apparent that within their own ranks there is jealousy and animosity . Also , particularly in Halsey's book  , the pressure from above on referees , he mentions the fact that one referee was demoted because he didn't issue enough cards in a season  . 

It's the same in all walks of life when people are given a position of power , as Keith will agree with . Whilst in the Police service I worked with some wonderful people but equally there were some right b*****ds  without a shred of conscience  who made you feel ashamed to be a police officer .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Never give authority to an idiot.

[fenman]

You should have told the Chief Constable of Norfolk that before he appointed me in 1971 Older .

[Bruegel the Elder]

Be careful lads or Sergeant Dixon Deacon will be after you for subverting the thread! You mustn’t let the powers of the keyboard go to your head!

[fenman]

On the other hand Dave could be pleased that we are contributing some sort of topic  and use for the forum during a time of non football .

[Martin Eddy]

Looking at it from another perspective. I think that these Referees are under the spotlight a lot more now because of var, dammed if they do dammed if they don’t. And as for waiting to put the flag up for offside, how ridicules is that, Rashford was way offside at the weekend it was so obvious but the flag only went up after he had shot. A player is going to get seriously hurt if that is not changed

 

[Ian Pethick]

 

Showman referees have always been a thing though, Clive Thomas is one who springs to mind as somebody who thought the crowd paid to watch him perform.  Same goes for Roger Milford, another self styled celebrity referee.

Going to expand this thread out slightly. Everybody talks about the poor refs, but who have been the best referees within the local scene over the past "however many you want to mention" years?

  My choice to kick off, and he is still very much reffing, Lee Roberts from Plymouth. Good mix of authority, knows and understands the game and has the respect of the players.

[Dave Deacon]

9 hours ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

Be careful lads or Sergeant Dixon Deacon will be after you for subverting the thread! You mustn’t let the powers of the keyboard go to your head!

No need to worry Bruegel. I’m not interfering, questioning or as Sergeant Dixon policing posts any more these days. 

[Bruegel the Elder]

Oh, come on Dave, the odd random deletion does spice things up a bit!

[Dave Deacon]

Nope! 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Dave Deacon said:

Nope! 

Haha!

[St Darren]

The prosecution brings more evidence of how poor the officials are from the City game this evening

[Bruegel the Elder]

Any City in particular St D? I don’t think the canaries need any help from the officials to beat the Robins!

[St Darren]

2 minutes ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

Any City in particular St D? I don’t think Norwich need any help from the officials to beat the Robins!

Have you seen the offside in the build up to Man City's goal? 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

VAR now referee's all the premier league matches...not the referee.

And its crapppp!

[Bruegel the Elder]

Come on Older, we all know about your camera on the roof, you’ll be at it in no time at all!🎥🤾🏻‍♂️❗️

[Dave Bartlam]

1 hour ago, St Darren said:

Have you seen the offside in the build up to Man City's goal? 

The decision to allow the goal to stand was correct.

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

Ming's deliberately played the ball. If you think it's crap, it's not the refs fault. It's IFAB's, the organisation that writes the Laws of the Game.

Ming's deliberately brings the ball.down and takes a touch. He should be more aware of his surroundings and be more knowledgeable of the laws.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

2 hours ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

Come on Older, we all know about your camera on the roof, you’ll be at it in no time at all!🎥🤾🏻‍♂️❗️

Already done it at the request of the referee after the game.

It confirmed his decision later in the game to ask for the away clubs lino to be replaced. 

[St Darren]

8 hours ago, Dave Bartlam said:

The decision to allow the goal to stand was correct.

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

Ming's deliberately played the ball. If you think it's crap, it's not the refs fault. It's IFAB's, the organisation that writes the Laws of the Game.

Ming's deliberately brings the ball.down and takes a touch. He should be more aware of his surroundings and be more knowledgeable of the laws.

Is crap though. The lino should have flagged and no one would have said anything. 

Basically you can now goal hang and join in when you want as soon as the defender touches the ball, save loads of energy. 

VAR was brought in because the officials were making so m hadn't errors. Its not stopped! 

They're all rubbish with their decision making

[St Darren]

39 minutes ago, Keith B said:

Come on - not all referees are rubbish Darren. Dear me, I wouldn't want to watch a match standing next to you sir.

The greater majority are rubbish. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Nope, all pretty good in my opinion, let the referee's referee and get rid of VAR.

Bring the spontaneity back into the game.

I can hardly watch the premiership anymore.

[St Darren]

50 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I'm saddened that you really think that. How many times over the seasons, has a slow motion replay proved the ref got it right Darren ? The answer is many sir. Refereeing is by no means an easy job. The ref has moving obstacles in his line of vision a lot of the time - games go at a terrific pace and the ref has a split second to make his decision and, he does not have the benefit of a slow motion replay. 

I say again I honestly believe that the average referee does a great job. Especially down here at our level too. Well done all of them from me.

Well, we'll agree to disagree. They're paid well to do a job and I'm sorry but some of them are not fit enough to do the job. The inconsistency in decision making is appalling! 

However, one point you make about slow motion, you slow anything down and it looks worse so I don't think var should use that for fouls as the ref doesn't get to see that. 

 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

We all see things differently depending on our position. 

We are not standing where the referee is, so we can't really comment on the decision a referee gives...only our own opinion depending where we are.

[Bruegel the Elder]

By and large these things even themselves out. Except when they don’t!

[St Darren]

3 hours ago, Keith B said:

Are you saying then Bruegel, that subconsciously referees may be biased ? Interesting - possible though I suppose. I can't believe it. Perhaps I just don't want to.

They're not biased, just rubbish and incompetent

[Bruegel the Elder]

3 hours ago, Keith B said:

Are you saying then Bruegel, that subconsciously referees may be biased ? Interesting - possible though I suppose. I can't believe it. Perhaps I just don't want to.

 

51 minutes ago, St Darren said:

They're not biased, just rubbish and incompetent

The problem here is that they’re human, and seen by the fans as biased/rubbish/incompetent. So what to do? Add V.A.R. and you get a second chance based on better information. The fans don’t like it because it shows up incompetent law making and the “better information” is still interpreted by humans who may be biased, rubbish and incompetent. What we need is drones assisted by banks of digital cameras, monitoring every square centimetre of the pitch for every second of the game. The fans won’t like it because there’s no individual in black to abuse and the people who make the surveillance system are biased/rubbish/incompetent obviously.

Some things you just gotta live with!

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, St Darren said:

They're not biased, just rubbish and incompetent

You're turning into big Al Darren...lol.

[St Darren]

10 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

You're turning into big Al Darren...lol.

Only on referees. I get fed up with the defence of them, they're paid well to do a job and the majority aren't competent in doing it, they don't follow all of the laws and are so inconsistent! 

However, I don't know what the answer is in order to make them better

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

58 minutes ago, St Darren said:

Only on referees. I get fed up with the defence of them, they're paid well to do a job and the majority aren't competent in doing it, they don't follow all of the laws and are so inconsistent! 

However, I don't know what the answer is in order to make them better

VAR...LOL.

[St Darren]

28 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

VAR...LOL.

I think var is good but it has its flaws. There is misconstrued information about 'clear and obvious error' if a slow motion replay needs ten looks at something then its not clear and obvious. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, St Darren said:

I think var is good but it has its flaws. There is misconstrued information about 'clear and obvious error' if a slow motion replay needs ten looks at something then its not clear and obvious. 

Reasonable.

[St Darren]

On 20/01/2021 at 21:43, Dave Bartlam said:

The decision to allow the goal to stand was correct.

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

Ming's deliberately played the ball. If you think it's crap, it's not the refs fault. It's IFAB's, the organisation that writes the Laws of the Game.

Ming's deliberately brings the ball.down and takes a touch. He should be more aware of his surroundings and be more knowledgeable of the laws.

And now they change the law to say that this goal will no longer be allowed to stand!! 

[Bruegel the Elder]

19 hours ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

 

The problem here is that they’re human, and seen by the fans as biased/rubbish/incompetent. So what to do? Add V.A.R. and you get a second chance based on better information. The fans don’t like it because it shows up incompetent law making and the “better information” is still interpreted by humans who may be biased, rubbish and incompetent. What we need is drones assisted by banks of digital cameras, monitoring every square centimetre of the pitch for every second of the game. The fans won’t like it because there’s no individual in black to abuse and the people who make the surveillance system are biased/rubbish/incompetent obviously.

Some things you just gotta live with!

 

18 minutes ago, St Darren said:

And now they change the law to say that this goal will no longer be allowed to stand!! 

I did say that introducing VAR would lead to people looking more closely at the laws they were trying to enforce and the very next day..........Hey presto a law is changed🪄⚡️What next.......... Drones?

[Bruegel the Elder]

26 minutes ago, Keith B said:

Please - not drones ! ! 

That’s just me Keith, you should know by now, given the slightest opportunity I drone on and on and on ad nausium!

[St Darren]

Shall we bring this up again after the fiasco of the referees making the var decisions last night?? 

[St Darren]

2 minutes ago, Keith B said:

Mmm - I'm afraid last night there was one or two bad decisions I thought. Two red cards - one of which was iffy at best, the other should not have been a red.

And the offside and penalty at Utd? 

The referees are trying to find a reason to disallow a goal.

 

They're all awful and uncompetent and cover each other up in their little club! 

[St Darren]

43 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I must admit that at times it does seem as though the system is trying to find reasons not to allow goals. However, referees are under the FA's microscope constantly, but it's to ensure competence and fairness.  

Bloody hell, they're not going the right way about it then with their inconsistencies are they

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Keith B said:

And here human nature comes in. We see it one way, someone else sees it another. Referees obviously must be given leeway and as has been said elsewhere, at pitch level it looks different and the ref's eye view can be obscured by other moving players.

VAR was meant to accurately assist the on pitch official over close calls etc,. The problem comes when the VAR official sees it differently again. Personally I believe and have said before, VAR should be scrapped - goal line cameras should be kept obviously and, let the on pitch referee do his job. It would assist him if replays were not allowed. The poor sod has one chance only and no replay to assist him. They do a damn good job in my book and are right 98% of the time - lets leave them alone to do it !

Inconsistencies will always exist because everyone sees things differently. Ask any police officer who has ever had to ask a number of people what they saw - he will get many different opinions, which isn't helpful but, that's life and human beings.

Correct. 

[St Darren]

By the way, Stuart Atwell is the worst!! 

Check out the penalty he didn't give to City this evening despite having multiple camera angles. 

He should never have been allowed to referee after the ghost goal he gave in a Reading match a number of years ago 

[fenman]

Just to show that I'm not blinkered in my support of Wolves I thought that Luize 's red card last night along with the second Southampton sending off was harsh . The reasons that the sending off's was justified is straight from a Marx Brothers script . If a player accidently fouls a opposition player in the penalty area it's a red card and a penalty  but if he deliberately takes him out it's a penalty and a yellow card . Did something get lost in translation ?

Also the Southampton manager has now said that he doesn't want Mason or Dean involved with any more Southampton games . Will he be fined like Nuno ?

I'm not anti referees , their job is difficult on the field as well as the political shananigans behind the scenes  in their organisations .This VAR fiasco has made their job even more difficult , almost impossible  . You wonder how any rational person with an insight into the relatively simple game like football could come up with  the handball according to sleeve length , offside by a heel even though you are near the corner flag facing away from goal . The instruction not to flag offside until the phase of play is finished etc. etc.  Managers jobs are on the line , witness the Chelsea fiasco with Lampard  , so why aren't managers asked what they want  from VAR? Surly F.I.F.A.  are capable of holding a discussion with the people who matter when they alter the rules .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

VAR - the ruination of football. 

[fenman]

One or two referees have mentioned in their biographies about the  pressure from within the referees  ruling body . Mentions of favouritism  toward certain referees , that kind of thing Keith .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Let the referee's referee like they used too.

From the lowest level to the highest they are part and parcel of the game and all do a pretty good job in my opinion. 

Let them get on with it and be part of the fun that used to be called football. 

[Ian Pethick]

On 04/02/2021 at 08:32, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

VAR - the ruination of football. 

Is really interesting how badly VAR has been received in football. Video technology has been pretty much been seen as enhancing the game in cricket, rugby union, rugby league and American football. Would guess that this is because these are all sports with natural breaks within play.

[Bruegel the Elder]

They could take a leaf out of Crickets book. Only allow VAR to be used following an appeal for review from one of the managers. Ten seconds to claim a VAR review after a referees decision, 2/3 reviews per team, per game, if your review is successful it is retained if overturned you lose it. When you run out of reviews it’s all down to the referee, as it is with umpires.