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Can I say that there will be a number of people reading this series of posts who think  " a load of old men babbling absolute rubbish " . But !!!!!!    reading all this and absorbing it makes you realise how complex life is . I marvel at how  nature adjusts things in the way that  a carpenter would,  for instance in making  something , " it won't work like this but it will if I " . So we have water , but not all water is the same , if certain chemical changes didn't occur by reaction with something else , it would be virtually useless . Going back to my comment about wood , if all wood was the same  it wouldn't be very useful other than as a fuel or limited building uses . As it is the various types of trees give us different types of wood , flexible , hard , soft  , hard wearing etc.  which makes it invaluable . We have grass , again if there were only one type it's use would be limited .Now we learn about artificial grass woven into matting incorporating natural grass , a bit of help from humble mankind to assist it's wearing properties .

You'll have to excuse my long posts I'm in the typing and research mood ,. I'm having my first experience of journalism ., so I'm in the keyboard pounding mood . I'm writing an article about Dutch children being sent to Britain after the second world war in an effort to help them recuperate after the effects of starvation and the horror of occupation . As many came to Norfolk I'm writing and researching this for a local magazine .

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Saltwater effects on plants/soil.

I think I’m correct in saying, the MAIN reason for plant death in high salinity is desiccation. The osmotic pressure on the outside of the root is greater than that on the inside. So moisture is drawn out of the plant , so wilts and dies.

There May also be some toxicity issue with sodium and chloride, both  of which are only needed in trace amounts.

I think, also it alters, (lowers) the cationic exchange capacity (CEC) of the soil, which lessens the soils ability to supply nutrients.

I very vaguely remember from school history, that the Romans used to “poison “ the fields with salt to stop crops from growing.

If I’m incorrect, hopefully someone will put me right, so I may learn something new.

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I suppose it's a similar reaction to curing bacon and fish where they are covered in salt to draw out the moisture , your comment about the Roman times I was almost alive then !!!!!! . Seriously   though , you are probably right because there seems to be very little growing on Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah or any of the salt basins in other parts of the world , of course it could be for a different reason .

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2 hours ago, Mrgreen said:

Saltwater effects on plants/soil.

I think I’m correct in saying, the MAIN reason for plant death in high salinity is desiccation. The osmotic pressure on the outside of the root is greater than that on the inside. So moisture is drawn out of the plant , so wilts and dies.

There May also be some toxicity issue with sodium and chloride, both  of which are only needed in trace amounts.

I think, also it alters, (lowers) the cationic exchange capacity (CEC) of the soil, which lessens the soils ability to supply nutrients.

I very vaguely remember from school history, that the Romans used to “poison “ the fields with salt to stop crops from growing.

If I’m incorrect, hopefully someone will put me right, so I may learn something new.

Yes Mrgreen you jog my memory there, it is the same way weedkiller works, the osmotic pressure is so great it bursts the cell walls of the plant and fluids leak out (dessication) death then follows. 

 

Good day today, the boys came up and cracked on with the divots while I scarified x 6 and then a nice slow cut to give a very nice finish.

Still holding off on the fertiliser as the grass is doing pretty good on its own. 

Colour could be better but scarifying it to give it good air movement around the tillers will help that.

 

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While it’s nice to look at lovely green grass, I believe grass can be perfectly healthy without being luminous.

The fresh air around the base will certainly perk it up, as will the sunlight now available to the lower parts..

For those of us who do need our sward to be a “nice” colour, the main  nutrient is Iron(Fe) . An iron product applied with a “little” N will green up with little growth. The little N is needed to help iron uptake.

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One of the furlough boys on his first ever go on the mower, brushing the ground ahead of me cutting...great saver!

Also holding off (just) from putting down the fertiliser yet with the grass doing well with no donkeys running around on it...lol.

Very green where I put down the organic fertiliser to treat the dry patches we had last summer, hoping it fixes that problem...we'll see.

No pattern on the pitch as yet, just nice to let the grass stand up straight for a few weeks. 

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Nothing to post at this time, just carrying on with general maintenance,  divoting, brushing, light scarifying and a bit of seeding. 

The cutting is another thing all together, the grass is growing a treat after the rain and now this heat, could comfortably cut every 3 days with the growth spurt that's happening. Boxing off the trimmings to stop the spread of meadow grass seeds and any weeds that may be seeding as well, essential to collect the trimmings at this time of the year.

I do occasionally leave the grass fly to put a bit of nitrogen and organic material back into the soil...but not very often as to try and avoid any thatch build up.

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8 hours ago, John Mead said:

Just a quick one Dave, how does ryegrass regenerate? I recognise meadow grass when the seeds appear but never seem to see any seeds growing amongst the ryegrass!

Hello John. Rye grasses are probably not seeding just yet, they produce seed when the days are longer.

They produce seed on what is known as daughter tillers that have broken off the main plant and have rooted, the rye grass can spread this way as well, once flowered and seeded the tiller dies, stop it from seeding by cutting the flowers off and the tiller will establish itself as a new plant. 

The seeds of a rye grass are quite low down and often hidden in the leaves, but because the crown is predominantly about 5cm below ground you can mow quite low to remove them.

To get a good crop of rye grass seeds you need a cool, cold winter and long days so next month would be/maybe the time to keep an eye out for them.

Your rye grasses will have a reddish/purple base to the tillers. 

 

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To box off, or not to box off?

The professional jury is very much out on the subject. Many will say, there is no proven correlation between returning clippings, and thatch accumulation. As a personal view,  if your happy with your sward composition, and the surface is dry, and you can’t see any clippings on the surface, then I’m okay with it. It does put something back in the way of nutrients. 

Also there is some benefits to drought tolerance, and soil bug activity.  However. If, as older points out, weed seeds are prominent, or grass is wet, or your removing to much top growth in one go. Better to remove I think.

Another consideration, is in the times of little or no worn control, grass clippings are a worm food source. Better to not return clippings in autumn or winter.

 

 

John mead.... Meadow grass seed is easier to spot because it will flower at an incredibly low mowing height. Down to as low as 3mm.

It is very much an opportunist and will fill any bare space, there seems to be an abundance this year. I think down to the ground drying very quickly this spring. The plant has been put under stress and has set seed accordingly.

Rye grass usually seeds between May and September and usually at a higher height. The seed harvest usually takes place in September and is very much a miniature version of a corn harvest. I have been privileged to have a visit to limigrain seed house in France to witness it. Acres and acres of grass at seed blowing in the breeze. Mini combine comes in and cuts it. It get threshed and separated. Many farmers in the area grow grass instead of more traditional crops, such is the value.

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As you know Mrgreen a grass flower is not a true flower,  rather it pollinates by wind only, hence it it can look like a field of corn when left to grow for haylage or seed cropping. 

Of course sports varieties do not do that as have been highly hybridised to stay relatively short and seed low down.

I'm a believer in taking the trimmings off when mowing but at certain times I leave them on to gain the seeds of the ryes and clover, although after collecting the seeds I will kill the clover for the winter period.

And yes, theres a huge amount of meadow grass this year but having mowed today and boxed it off the seeding is reducing at last, probably down by 70% now...slowly winning that one I think. When the meadow grass eventually stops I will leave the arisings fly for a few weeks to give a bit of shelter from the sun and collect the beneficial seeds as previously mentioned. 

Also too much grass to leave fly at this time, 10 boxes of arisings today at a hundredweight  a pop is too much to leave on the surface, if you leave it fly all the time you really have to cut very regularly to get away with it.

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Correct me if I'm wrong on the subject of Rye grass  But ! . In recent years in East Anglia we have grown more and more Maize  ( another type of grass ?)  to be used in the electricity generating industry . I don't know how it works  but it's stored under huge rubber like sheets and then fed into a large dome like structure and electricity is produced . In the last couple of years I've noticed that there is a lot of rye grass grown . I discovered a few weeks ago that the transport firm that  I have connections with  cart this rye grass to the power station as well .  It's processed in the same way as the maize  .One of the things which surprised me is how abrasive the dried rye grass is . The insides of the tipper trailer a, shine like a new pin after carrying a load of this rye .  Bit of a pointless post I suppose , but it relieves the boredom on a cold day .

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I think they are biomass plants producing ethanol to power generators. 

Maize is high in starch so generates gas when stored and wetted generating microbe activity, seed coatings are pretty tough casings so would polish most surfaces I suspect. 

From memory a hectare of maize can produce in excess of 5 or 6 million Megawatts of electricity! 

Yes maize is a grass.

From my deepest memories there are around 9,000 species of grass...I think(?)

 

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That's it Biomass plants , there's a couple near us  , they are quite small but obviously quite effective . The maize material is quite abrasive but nowhere near as much as the rye . I'm sure it's rye grass I'm talking about  , I must ask the drivers when I return to work . I know the farmers seem to grow  more and more of it , I suppose it helps the crop rotation with sugar beet now that potato growing is  reducing  , although I don't know if maize and rye are regarded in the crop rotation system as  a cereal crop .

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1 hour ago, fenman said:

That's it Biomass plants , there's a couple near us  , they are quite small but obviously quite effective . The maize material is quite abrasive but nowhere near as much as the rye . I'm sure it's rye grass I'm talking about  , I must ask the drivers when I return to work . I know the farmers seem to grow  more and more of it , I suppose it helps the crop rotation with sugar beet now that potato growing is  reducing  , although I don't know if maize and rye are regarded in the crop rotation system as  a cereal crop .

Remember the song with bringing in rye in it(?) 

I dont know but would think the seed husk is some form of cellulose (?)

And I would imagine it is rotated the same as all other crops, sugar beet is also a biomass crop due to it's high starch content. 

 

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On 12/05/2020 at 15:48, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Finished the spot spraying today and did notice quite a few dandelions that have germinated from last year, get them early before they establish and seed.

Ryan turned up again and strimmed all the carpark and roads...excellent.

 

 

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Ryan sounds like a keeper. It’s nice to be freed up to do other stuff. 

Are the dandelions new stock, or regrowth from earlier treated plants. On close up the sward looks a little open, perfect for weed ingress. As it thickens, weeds may become less of a problem. The good AND bad with turf, is that there’s always a problem to deal with.

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No Mrgreen he's not a keeper...he's the leagues top goalscorer...lol ....I know what you mean...haha!

New plants from seed,  I've retreated all the original spraying that recovered, these are not out in the field but a foot from the railings.

The field itself is thickening up reasonably well and probably I will fertilise soon to push it on a bit for summer, I am considering a touch of iron to toughen the cell walls up for the summer sunshine. Iron is useful for helping internal osmotic pressure to maintain cell turgidity  (stiffness) and reduce transpiration ...normally called turf toughener.

If I do I will probably go for no more than 4% unless I use a liquid toughener which I can use sparingly and dilute accordingly. 

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21 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

No Mrgreen he's not a keeper...he's the leagues top goalscorer...lol ....I know what you mean...haha!

New plants from seed,  I've retreated all the original spraying that recovered, these are not out in the field but a foot from the railings.

The field itself is thickening up reasonably well and probably I will fertilise soon to push it on a bit for summer, I am considering a touch of iron to toughen the cell walls up for the summer sunshine. Iron is useful for helping internal osmotic pressure to maintain cell turgidity  (stiffness) and reduce transpiration ...normally called turf toughener.

If I do I will probably go for no more than 4% unless I use a liquid toughener which I can use sparingly and dilute accordingly. 

Embarrassingly, it took me way too long to “get” the keeper joke.

If I may be so bold as to offer an opinion. I’ve sometimes witnessed some damage to new seedlings when a liquid iron product has been applied. What appears to be similar to desiccation, and often leading to death. Certainly stay clear of anything to “hot” such as iron sulphate. Not sure whether a chelated liquid would have a similar devastating effect???

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1 minute ago, Mrgreen said:

Embarrassingly, it took me way too long to “get” the keeper joke.

If I may be so bold as to offer an opinion. I’ve sometimes witnessed some damage to new seedlings when a liquid iron product has been applied. What appears to be similar to desiccation, and often leading to death. Certainly stay clear of anything to “hot” such as iron sulphate. Not sure whether a chelated liquid would have a similar devastating effect???

Nice one buddy, if I do put a touch of iron down I will over dilute it to accommodate the young seedlings which are now at the dicotyledon stage...happy with that. 

Iron plays a big part in the control of osmotic pressure and it always amazes me the strength of the iron in some of the fertilisers, as well as the amount of nitrogen sometimes used, I always go for the lower values as in reality grass really only needs a bit of help.

I suppose it's our vanity that wants these ultra green shimmer in the sunlight pitches...I do like them mind, nothing better that a chequer board of a playing surface!

 

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So then Gents, are we all getting bored now with entertaining the masses, or giving away trade secrets for no fiscal reward?
WHAT IS GOING ON? Not a single post on this thread in 73 hours! Anyone would think you’ve got something better to do 🚜🧹‼️
I hope that you’re all staying well, look after yourselves. Lots of love - B.T.E.

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Sorry BTE we've probably all got to the stage where it's purely routine maintenance now just waiting for the go ahead to mark the pitches and put the goalposts up. Got to say from my point of view it's a little frustrating having no end product ie a match on a Saturday! However could do with a drop of rain if you have any stored somewhere, never satisfied us grounds people.

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I'll be interested if other people have had soil analysis done on their pitches in the local area. 

At Carharrack AFC our pitch is manmade not natural so it is possible soil from old mine working was used to fill it in.  Our analysis shows a high amount of Copper and Iron.  

Not including Fe (Iron) in a mix is a easy way not to add to the problem. 

PH Levels are just right but comes back as 

Soil Type: Sandy Silt Loam which would explain issues with drainage, clay type soil sticks. You can see the profile by downloading the attachment. 

 

Carharrack_AFC_Soil_Analysis.pdf

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29 minutes ago, Richard Chown said:

I'll be interested if other people have had soil analysis done on their pitches in the local area. 

At Carharrack AFC our pitch is manmade not natural so it is possible soil from old mine working was used to fill it in.  Our analysis shows a high amount of Copper and Iron.  

Not including Fe (Iron) in a mix is a easy way not to add to the problem. 

PH Levels are just right but comes back as 

Soil Type: Sandy Silt Loam which would explain issues with drainage, clay type soil sticks. You can see the profile by downloading the attachment. 

 

Carharrack_AFC_Soil_Analysis.pdf 1.31 MB · 1 download

As a general rule, the only people to benefit from a soil nutrition sample is the Fertiliser salesman!!

Nutrient lock up does occur, but rarely.

Don’t get to hung up on the minor nutrients, there is more than enough in a soil based pitch. Having played at ting tang a few times, both in wet, and dry conditions. Drainage/ Aeration, would be my main focus, rather than minor nutrition supplements.

The reason I say this, is, as I recall,  the surface went from wet to bone hard very quickly. The grass that was on the pitch always seemed pretty healthy, just a little sparse.

Feed sensibly,  preferably with an organic Fertiliser.Cut little and often. And above all,  Aerate as deep and as often as you can afford.

Having said all of that. When constructing a pitch.. PREPARATION,PREPARATION,PREPARATION. If constructed badly, you will always have a battle.

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Yes Mrgreen,  agree with all of that.

Did have a good look around over ting tang a couple of seasons ago and certainly regular cutting and aeration would do the surface a world of good.

You do have a problem with the lay of the land (topography) however, there is a lot of run off from the area above the pitch, and the drainage trench is nowhere near deep enough, I did see water running over the trench on a couple of wet days when over looking at it suggesting it is silted up therefore not working anymore. Also if you have a high silt content you need a couple of seasons with a sand dressing as well as a natural fertiliser such as a few seasons applying something like a chicken manure. 

These operations would give your pitch some good porosity encouraging rooting and so on.

It could possibly also flush some of the copper and iron out of the soil profile. 

Cant say I noticed any severe copper or iron indicators in the grass so as Mrgreen says I would not be unduly worried about the report,  the biggest concern for me would be the volume of clay silt in the sample, but as already stated keep the ground opened up to allow root development. 

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Afternoon all. Not sure how i missed all this. Great thread. Im after some help. Our pitch at St Blazey has been left a bit bobbly since the flooding. Drainage work has been carried out. Were now ready to vertidrain and re seed but we need the pitch levelled. Can any reccomend a sand supplier? Or would you just use top soil? Any help appreciated.

Regards

Paul.

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20 minutes ago, Paul said:

Afternoon all. Not sure how i missed all this. Great thread. Im after some help. Our pitch at St Blazey has been left a bit bobbly since the flooding. Drainage work has been carried out. Were now ready to vertidrain and re seed but we need the pitch levelled. Can any reccomend a sand supplier? Or would you just use top soil? Any help appreciated.

Regards

Paul.

Hello Paul. There's a quarry not far from you that does sports sand...topdress with that to level your pitch buddy.

About 40 /50 tons would be good. 

I think the number is

01726 822381 or 823695

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With no real rain in the forecast, is anybody thinking about irrigation?

While I’d be surprised if many pitches needed water to stay alive just yet, a groundsman vanity is a curious thing. No doubt the turf would respond very nicely to a little water, especially any new seedlings,  With zero play to accommodate is the extra time and cost worth it?

Height of cut could be raised and frequency reduced to ease the stresses. With this dry period seed heads and stalks will become prevalent. No problem for a rotary mower, but those with gang mowers or cylinders, a real pain. 

With the cost of water on the increase(somewhere around £2 a cubic metre) 1000ltrs  maybe a wetting agent would be useful? Put VERY simply wetting agents, make water, wetter!! These applied with a liquid seaweed spray, can have a real positive effect while using less water. Quite expensive though, and most need to be sprayed.

 

Paul.

If budgets allow, try and time all processes together. Spiking first will give the seed somewhere to go, and allow any dressings to key together with the surface, sometimes if sand is just applied to top, it will create its own layer. Better to mix(key) it to existing soil.

If it’s to be an annual event, sand is the way to go, however, if it’s a one off event, try and source a 70/30 top dressing mix. A 30 tonne load is somewhere around £1000 ( I know what your thinking. SHIT, a grand!!)

There’s a contractor down my way called Andrew  Sandow.  Sorry don’t have a number. But he’s decent. Or for materials try BHGS, formally JFC Munro’s. Make sure you speak to Andrew janman. Nobody else in there has a clue!!

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I would always seed first, spread the top dressing and then vertidrain and brush in.

Each to their own though.

£2 cubic metre(?)

Won't start watering until the grass starts to wilt, an odd spot may get a drop if needed but have left the grass grow for 10 days now to give it a bit of cover from the sun, but will give it a nip soon to remove the meadow grass seeds.

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Your'e right Older you can water as much as you like but nothing beats the rain . We had a shower during the night and plants have grown more today than in the past week in spite of  much use of watering cans on the allotment . Mind you I 'm near the allotment tap so I use a hose  rather than lugging a watering can about , one of the old boy's said he wished he'd thought of it . I told him " there's two sorts of people in the world  , those near a tap with a hose , and those  further away from a tap without a hose " .He didn't smile !!!!!

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Got the old 180 triple  up and running today, bit more adjustment needed but overall not too bad.

Ryan jumped on board and cut the pitch in 40 minutes! An hour quicker than the rotary, get it adjusted properly and the finish is quite impressive. Got the boxes for grass collecting but not the catcher plates to throw it in so thinking about having them made...don't know if I'll keep it just yet...juries out on that one at this time. 

 

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A perfectly adjusted and set cylinder mower is a thing of beauty. Certainly nice to have an option. Useful to have in the stable, if space allows. Cut often enough, and in dry conditions, boxing off is not essential. If boxes are to be used, the rear vacuum plates or needed to create vortex to throw grass forwards, or backwards for rear unit.

Question.... Do you set the stripe width with the brush, or the 180.  And do you adhere to the same stripes with every process.

The reason I ask, is that Ryan APPEARS to be travelling the wrong way down the light stripe?

 

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Haha...good spot Mrgreen, I sort of showed him the inner outer way of cutting grass and left him to it while I whipped away for a new throttle cable, when I got back he was ¾ finished. I noticed it myself when I posted the picture (didn't notice it taking the picture DOH)...ah well...not the end of the world!

During the season I will normally cut in pattern every time alternating with cross cutting to produce the box pattern.

If (IF) we have a blank weekend I will brush and cut against the pattern to give the grass a chance to stand up, I like to think the grass enjoys a rest from lying down all the time...lol.

Definitely a well tuned cylinder leaves the best of finishes, the 180 has been sharpened but is not proving easy to set up, there are 36 adjustable points on the 3 cylinders! and has not been looked after adjusting wise, a few spots still not quite right yet.

I think I will start from the beginning again but this time I will start with the levelling bar to get it right from the bottom up.

I have the boxes but not the catcher plates...bugger on that, I will have to have them made if I want them though.

Setting the stripes with the 180 at the moment but will go back to a 6 yard pattern when the footy starts again, just using this break to mow in all directions at this time, and in the winter will use the rotary as the 180 is too heavy for a wet pitch.

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13 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Eventful day today, dogs peeing all over the pitch causing the grass to flush with the nitrogen in it, and burning it with the heat.

 

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Also the clover has started to flower. Screenshot_20200524-181436_Gallery.thumb.jpg.fd3ed15bd10a35668275b45a53a962ed.jpg

Most likely the female of the species. Male dogs tend to lift a leg and use a post, or something similar.(much like myself) Where as the bitch will squat and go anywhere(much like my first girlfriend).

Foxes have a similar effect.

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16 minutes ago, Paul said:

Anyone any idea how to add a photo? It always says the photo is to large. 

Paul screenshot your phone with the picture up, then upload the screenshot.

 

A screenshot is much smaller. Hope your well mate, following your work on social media, looking really good at Blaise Park.

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1 hour ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

One for you Mrgreen...what's this(?)

Had a few on the pitch this year but never before!

Looks like a young figwort to me...over to you please.

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Ok. Here goes.

To be really honest, I don’t know. I’m going to have to take an educated guess

It appears to me, like a young plant, that hasn’t been allowed to develop due to close mowing.

It kind of looks like a young Charlock. (Big woody bush, with yellow flowers) seeds like buggery. But I’d like to edge my bets a little and say it could also be a young ragwort.

Take a look around, over a few hedges, and see what’s in abundance. Sorry I can’t be of any further assistance, but if you get a firm identification post it, to let us know. 

 

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Thank you Mark for the help. I tryed all sorts but gave up last night. 

Just thought id stick this picture here of Hayles ground yesterday. Looking lovely in the sun. Popped up the hill for a quick look as ive not seen the place since the All weather pitch was built. I was visiting my mum through the window of the Hayle hospital. First time seeing her for 9 weeks after suffering a brain hemorrhage and having had 3 operations in Derriford it was good to see her. 

Anyway, Hayles pitch looked fantastic. Great colour to. 👏

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