Refusing promotion

[Philheybrookbay]

According to the FA, 2 teams will be promoted from SWPL W and E this season (1st and 2nd  positions only). However, the 2nd place can opt out this season should they wish.

Are there any teams looking to opt out do we know at this stage - I've heard rumblings from a work colleague that Torpoint wouldn't be keen this year? 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

I would imagine there are a few clubs who don't want to make the step up.

Away all day and evening matches well up the line...dont blame them. 

[Dave Deacon]

3 hours ago, Philheybrookbay said:

I've heard rumblings from a work colleague that Torpoint wouldn't be keen this year? 

Up until only a few weeks ago it was being suggesting that Torpoint were looking to take promotion if the opportunity arose, unless something has changed at the club more recently!

[Philheybrookbay]

5 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

I would imagine there are a few clubs who don't want to make the step up.

Away all day and evening matches well up the line...dont blame them. 

I dont think theres any doubt in the years ahead, that Western League Premier will become more and more Devon and Cornwall based. 4 up this season 2 each following years. Add in the ones there, and it becomes a far more attractive proposition. 

If you read yesterdays independent Chipping Sodbury are already planning for Hellenic along with a lot of Bristol based teams in the coming years. 

[Bobjfh]

I heard, from a very reliable source, that the Saltash team want to take promotion (if first or second in league) but the club itself may not wish to take promotion if they finish second and ‘save for next year’ - which may be sensible depending on club finances but risky Can be little doubt that Helston would take promotion either way and for me the only other possible contender for second, Mousehole, one would assume would want promotion?

Is it two every year - I thought this season was a ‘one of’ to balance league numbers at Step 5 and above??

[leedsunited]

Brilliant ... Clubs not taking promotion . Bodmin bossed the league for years & was slaughtered every year for not taking promotion ... It's not visible down here, travel, work commitments, standards ( teams will be ok through to Western League Premier then Southern League the gulf is huge ) . Just not possible. Wait & see. Clubs can however fail to get ground's up to standard & fail the protocol & then use this as an  excuse to not to promotion .. 

[We Two]

That's not a problem that Bodmin are likely to have this season and there are teams at the top of league who are willing to give it a go so good luck to them for showing the Cornish flag in foriegn parts.
It's the same old story really, how many clubs could afford to take promotion to a higher status league if they didn't pay inflated pay packets to underperforming players.
We are repeatedly told that Western League clubs pay nowhere near the amounts bandied around in Cornwall, or is it just a lack of ambition? if so the Western league will never be a reality for Cornish clubs, or for any of the youngsters who may play for them.

20 minutes ago, leedsunited said:

Brilliant ... Clubs not taking promotion . Bodmin bossed the league for years & was slaughtered every year for not taking promotion ... It's not visible down here, travel, work commitments, standards ( teams will be ok through to Western League Premier then Southern League the gulf is huge ) . Just not possible. Wait & see. Clubs can however fail to get ground's up to standard & fail the protocol & then use this as an  excuse to not to promotion .. 

 

[Onlooker]

1 hour ago, Bobjfh said:

I heard, from a very reliable source, that the Saltash team want to take promotion (if first or second in league) but the club itself may not wish to take promotion if they finish second and ‘save for next year’ - which may be sensible depending on club finances but risky Can be little doubt that Helston would take promotion either way and for me the only other possible contender for second, Mousehole, one would assume would want promotion?

Is it two every year - I thought this season was a ‘one of’ to balance league numbers at Step 5 and above??

St Austell lost to 1 team all season in the league but not contenders for second? yeah ok.  

[RAPPO]

With Parkway, Exmouth and Tavistock all in the top 6 this season there’s no doubt our teams would do well in the Western League, always said it, hardly ever remember losing to a Western league team in the Vase or FA Cup over the many years!? Like everyone says it’s just the 5 hour round trip to Bristol every other weekend for the next 5 to 7 seasons while all our ambitious clubs are getting promoted. Be decent after that when our clubs make up half the league!? It’s just getting to that process! Good luck to all our ambitious clubs though, be good to see when it eventually happens 👍⚽️👏🏼

[Tribute]

To be honest clubs and their players should be looking for promotion . This league has gone weak .Big scores even  10-nil games happening ! That for me is unacceptable in the Best league in Cornwall. 

[Bobjfh]

1 hour ago, Onlooker said:

St Austell lost to 1 team all season in the league but not contenders for second? yeah ok.  

Onlooker - no disrespect to St Austell - purely they are 5 points behind Helston having played two more and 6 points ahead of Saltash having played 5 more games (two of their remaining are against Helston, I believe, and they have been comfortably beaten twice by Saltash). They have 5 points over Mousehole having played 2 more and only have one game left against Helston and Saltash. Nothing is over till the end of the season - imo just don’t see St Austell being top two and in a battle for third / fourth / fifth - just an opinion. 
Leeds - my earlier comment was just rumour (even from a good source), let’s just see what happens come May

i agree with Rappo and others, would love to see every possible Cornish team take promotion to Step 5

[St Darren]

Tell me what’s the point and what’s the rewards for promotion?

The majority of the clubs are community projects as such and not businesses. 

How sustainable is promotion?

[countyman]

It seems to me that if either, or both Clubs in the top 2 are allowed to refuse promotion then this surely must have a knock on effect down the levels? I'm assuming theres no mandatory relegation to the SwPl from above so how are the numbers on the 2 divisions maintained in both cases either where 2 take promotion from each division....and where neither take it??

 

[Bobjfh]

countyman - I was looking for a simple answer to your question, but it’s not that simple. Below are the NLS rules that apply - section 5 onwards

http://swpleague-co-uk.stackstaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/NLS-Regulations-2019-2020.pdf

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

42 minutes ago, Bobjfh said:

countyman - I was looking for a simple answer to your question, but it’s not that simple. Below are the NLS rules that apply - section 5 onwards

http://swpleague-co-uk.stackstaging.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/NLS-Regulations-2019-2020.pdf

Oh dear! Heavy reading that is.

[Steve Carpenter]

2 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Oh dear! Heavy reading that is.

Try this.  It's a bit lighter and gives the national picture.  

https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/features/26633/fa-second-phase-non-league-restructuring/ 

[beacon]

Maybe like in other sports to make everything on an even keel why not have a salary type cap. Clubs could then budget for season and hopefully be able to take next step up .. 

[Luke Gibbons]

On 20/01/2020 at 06:53, Philheybrookbay said:

According to the FA, 2 teams will be promoted from SWPL W and E this season (1st and 2nd  positions only). However, the 2nd place can opt out this season should they wish.

Are there any teams looking to opt out do we know at this stage - I've heard rumblings from a work colleague that Torpoint wouldn't be keen this year? 

Depends who that work colleague is Phil... Plenty of sides will be trying to avoid the subject at the moment and focus on finishing as high up the league as they can. It'd be a blessing for any Club that is able to, potentially, decide their own fate. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

5 hours ago, Steve Carpenter said:

Try this.  It's a bit lighter and gives the national picture.  

https://www.thenonleaguefootballpaper.com/features/26633/fa-second-phase-non-league-restructuring/ 

A lot better...thanks.

[Martin Eddy]

This is what I love about this site. Debate and facts.

[Henning Berg]

Heard from a very reliable source that purely playing side (i.e. travel expenses for players) would cost between £10k-£12k for Western league. Clubs have to find that themselves. there lies the problem. Having said that, with four clubs going up each year in two seasons time the league could be inundated with old SWPL clubs and that would be great. takes a few to take the plunge as it always has been though...

[John Mead]

3 hours ago, Henning Berg said:

Heard from a very reliable source that purely playing side (i.e. travel expenses for players) would cost between £10k-£12k for Western league. Clubs have to find that themselves. there lies the problem. Having said that, with four clubs going up each year in two seasons time the league could be inundated with old SWPL clubs and that would be great. takes a few to take the plunge as it always has been though...

Think it's 4 up this year and only the 2 Champion Clubs from then on.

[Mike Odgers]

In a few seasons time it could become a strong Devon/Cornwall influenced (Western League) with the Bristol based clubs moving to Hellenic League way

Next Season Sumising---. Helston & Saltash up from the West---Ilfracombe and Torpoint from the East  plus Barnstaple relegated from SL to join up with Buckland, Parkway,Exmouth and Tavistock

[We Two]

The problem some have with finishing in a promotion place, is that they have spent their money on players to get them there and then can't afford the travel expences for the Western League as it now stands.
Until the extremely unlikely happens and clubs stop paying silly money to put a cup in the trophy cabinet, The Western League will remain a distant objective.
Helston get pilloried for their financial outlay, but at least if we are to believe the club officials, it's being done with a view to promotion to the next level and not to sit on their bums  winning the same league season after season, and saying look how good we are.
Have the present S.W.P.L. clubs given any thought to where their best players may want to play if given the chance to play at a higher level?

Good Luck Helston and Saltash if you take promotion and bring The Western League just that little bit nearer to Cornwall

[Ian Pethick]

16 hours ago, Mike Odgers said:

In a few seasons time it could become a strong Devon/Cornwall influenced (Western League) with the Bristol based clubs moving to Hellenic League way

Next Season Sumising---. Helston & Saltash up from the West---Ilfracombe and Torpoint from the East  plus Barnstaple relegated from SL to join up with Buckland, Parkway,Exmouth and Tavistock

No offence to the Western League,  but really hope Parkway aren't part of it next season.

[We Two]

1 hour ago, Way Of The Park said:

No offence to the Western League,  but really hope Parkway aren't part of it next season.

The reason being ?

[Bobjfh]

3 minutes ago, We Two said:

The reason being ?

We Two - I think WofTP is hoping that Parkway will have been promoted😀

[We Two]

1 hour ago, Bobjfh said:

We Two - I think WofTP is hoping that Parkway will have been promoted😀

Thank you Bobjfh, that makes sense so good luck Parkway, a club with ambition !.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, We Two said:

Thank you Bobjfh, that makes sense so good luck Parkway, a club with ambition !.

And geographically well positioned. 

[le boss]

Here is something which is a bit left-field - if there is a real consensus of opinion that the powers to be are trying to make the Western League a bit more Cornish, and thus altering its geography and it is something that the CCFA wish to happen, then why cant the CCFA perhaps subsidise the travel cost of those teams promoted for a few seasons - the financial outlay could be done by providing transport for away trips or something to ensure the money is not moved sideways to pay for players. Its common knowledge the CCFA are loaded and surely a deal could be struck with a travel firm. I bet those teams who don't feel they can attract a golden goose of their own would perhaps think differently about promotion. 

[We Two]

1 hour ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

And geographically well positioned.

Unlike Helston who never the less have the ambition to move to a higher level.

[mattelot]

52 minutes ago, We Two said:

Unlike Helston who never the less have the ambition to move to a higher level.

But with the intention of using mainly Devon based players to be able to fulfill  midweek fixtures .

[We Two]

53 minutes ago, mattelot said:

But with the intention of using mainly Devon based players to be able to fulfill  midweek fixtures .

That's an option open to everyone, not just Helston.
We have no connection with Helston in any way, shape, or form, but we take our hats off to them for at least giving it a go instead of accepting the we can't do it attitude that too many find acceptable to the detriment of Cornish football.

[le boss]

1 hour ago, mattelot said:

But with the intention of using mainly Devon based players to be able to fulfill  midweek fixtures .

 

got to give it to you - you are consistent.

49 minutes ago, Jacob Englefield said:

I have no doubt that Helston will take promotion. I think the big question is, how well will they do? It'll be a different team to what we are seeing this season. Perhaps more experienced players. That will include a fair share from across the border. Many will also ask, is the current project sustainable in the long term? I would've thought, as will many others, that they will play the more experienced players good sums of money. That will only increase year on year if they continue this progress they are making. The problem comes with the crowds they are getting. Their current average is 154. Surely it'll need to be more than that? Regardless, I'll be following their progress with interest. It's refreshing to see a team from Cornwall making a real go of things and having a higher level of ambition.

Think you should explain what you mean by experienced - the team has experience from front to back and it has been used when conditions have been difficult and when playing difficult opponents. Perhaps you mean better players rather than more experienced and so the question is "is there that much better talent in Devon than in Cornwall?" Historically teams from Cornwall playing Western League opponents have faired pretty successfully so maybe the gulf isn't that big. 

[Tommy Matthews]

3 hours ago, le boss said:

Here is something which is a bit left-field - if there is a real consensus of opinion that the powers to be are trying to make the Western League a bit more Cornish, and thus altering its geography and it is something that the CCFA wish to happen, then why cant the CCFA perhaps subsidise the travel cost of those teams promoted for a few seasons - the financial outlay could be done by providing transport for away trips or something to ensure the money is not moved sideways to pay for players. Its common knowledge the CCFA are loaded and surely a deal could be struck with a travel firm. I bet those teams who don't feel they can attract a golden goose of their own would perhaps think differently about promotion. 

I don’t think the CCFA are quite as loaded as everyone makes out. Firstly a few years back the FA reduced their contribution to the CCFA by something like 19%. Whilst they have had to employ staff into positions that the FA require, they have also had to make adjustments to some of the existing staff. 
The FA have certain expectations (KPIs or Key Performance Indicators) and each county FA bases their staff on the ability to deliver their KPIs. 
Whilst they have a certain latitude towards doing their own thing, they are strictly governed by what they can or can’t do based on the FA’s strategy. 
Some counties can’t afford to run their representative youth teams anymore and we’re only talking a handful of games. 
Whether there’s a pot of money somewhere that can subsidise a club team’s promotion...I would expect not. If you apply to the FA for any grant there has to some longevity to the plan over a period of years and not just to ploughed into the first team. Don’t forget the money they spend is public money and therefore has to be accounted for and available for public scrutiny. 
Essentially, if a club has the kind of budget the size of those mentioned for promotion then you’d hope they might have enough sponsorship to overcome the travel issue. 
I worked alongside some of the people at the CCFA for many years and they come in for a huge amount of criticism. Imagine what some would say if money destined to develop the game by way of a club grant to a club to improve facilities was redirected to a SWPL club to help with their travelling expenses. 

[BIG AL]

1 hour ago, We Two said:

That's an option open to everyone, not just Helston.
We have no connection with Helston in any way, shape, or form, but we take our hats off to them for at least giving it a go instead of accepting the we can't do it attitude that too many find acceptable to the detriment of Cornish football.

Exactly, why don’t Falmouth attempt to a hie e promotion?

[le boss]

53 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

I don’t think the CCFA are quite as loaded as everyone makes out. Firstly a few years back the FA reduced their contribution to the CCFA by something like 19%. Whilst they have had to employ staff into positions that the FA require, they have also had to make adjustments to some of the existing staff. 
The FA have certain expectations (KPIs or Key Performance Indicators) and each county FA bases their staff on the ability to deliver their KPIs. 
Whilst they have a certain latitude towards doing their own thing, they are strictly governed by what they can or can’t do based on the FA’s strategy. 
Some counties can’t afford to run their representative youth teams anymore and we’re only talking a handful of games. 
Whether there’s a pot of money somewhere that can subsidise a club team’s promotion...I would expect not. If you apply to the FA for any grant there has to some longevity to the plan over a period of years and not just to ploughed into the first team. Don’t forget the money they spend is public money and therefore has to be accounted for and available for public scrutiny. 
Essentially, if a club has the kind of budget the size of those mentioned for promotion then you’d hope they might have enough sponsorship to overcome the travel issue. 
I worked alongside some of the people at the CCFA for many years and they come in for a huge amount of criticism. Imagine what some would say if money destined to develop the game by way of a club grant to a club to improve facilities was redirected to a SWPL club to help with their travelling expenses. 

so where did the money for the new HQ come from lol? I'm sure if the CCFA dressed it up as an incentive to drive up standards etc etc within the county, then the sceptics would be placated. Sounds like the FA is more and more like big brother rather than a sporting governing body - a bit like the CCFA I guess

1 hour ago, We Two said:

That's an option open to everyone, not just Helston.
We have no connection with Helston in any way, shape, or form, but we take our hats off to them for at least giving it a go instead of accepting the we can't do it attitude that too many find acceptable to the detriment of Cornish football.

I can't understand why clubs are content being big fish in little ponds winning the same competition over and over again and then basking in the so-called glory. Cornwall is seen as insular and this type of behaviour only perpetuates that idea

[BIG AL]

5 minutes ago, le boss said:

so where did the money for the new HQ come from lol? I'm sure if the CCFA dressed it up as an incentive to drive up standards etc etc within the county, then the sceptics would be placated. Sounds like the FA is more and more like big brother rather than a sporting governing body - a bit like the CCFA I guess

I have never understood why they needed such an extravagant building. I have been watching football for 50 years and the Cornwall fa have always been loaded with money. They need to move forward into the 21st century, that is for sure and be ore open !

[Tommy Matthews]

I guess those following this thread will have to either believe me or you. 

[le boss]

Just now, Tommy Matthews said:

I guess those following this thread will have to either believe me or you. 

Are you still working for the CCFA just out of interest?

[ECPL]

Unfortunately this is a problem that will go on for many more years.

 

What people have to understand is

 

First The geographical position we are in down here.

Second The sheer cost of running a team in a higher league.

Third The unavailability of players on a Saturday if you have to spend hours on the road as many players work on a Saturday

Fourth The support has dwindled over the years. There was a time when Football was it on a Saturday afternoon. Not now

Finally. Everything looks good on paper but you only have to look at a map to see the problem. If you live in London, Birmingham or Manchester you will be looking at a max 40 mile round trip. Not down here – It is 76 miles between Saltash and Penzance.

 

The old argument continues to re surface. The suits at the FA seem to have lost their focus as to just what football at this level is all about. People just want to play. Take a look at promotion and relegation. The St Piran League was introduced by the FA because it looks good on paper but how many teams are even eligible for promotion to the SWPL. So they tried to destroy two well run leagues for what. But thanks to hard working clubs both leagues have survived.

 

It is time we woke up to the reality in that no matter what peoples views are the re-organisation just does not make sense.

[le boss]

2 minutes ago, ECPL said:

Unfortunately this is a problem that will go on for many more years.

 

What people have to understand is

 

First The geographical position we are in down here.

Second The sheer cost of running a team in a higher league.

Third The unavailability of players on a Saturday if you have to spend hours on the road as many players work on a Saturday

Fourth The support has dwindled over the years. There was a time when Football was it on a Saturday afternoon. Not now

Finally. Everything looks good on paper but you only have to look at a map to see the problem. If you live in London, Birmingham or Manchester you will be looking at a max 40 mile round trip. Not down here – It is 76 miles between Saltash and Penzance.

 

The old argument continues to re surface. The suits at the FA seem to have lost their focus as to just what football at this level is all about. People just want to play. Take a look at promotion and relegation. The St Piran League was introduced by the FA because it looks good on paper but how many teams are even eligible for promotion to the SWPL. So they tried to destroy two well run leagues for what. But thanks to hard working clubs both leagues have survived.

 

It is time we woke up to the reality in that no matter what peoples views are the re-organisation just does not make sense.

If that opinion is the over-riding consensus then the "members" of the CCFA must ensure their voice is heard and that those in charge relay the voices onwards and upwards. Solidarity brother, solidarity!!!

[Tommy Matthews]

5 minutes ago, le boss said:

Are you still working for the CCFA just out of interest?

No. But I know how they work and all the good things they do. The new HQ is for a very good reason, certainly a better one than funding promoted teams’ travelling expenses. 

[le boss]

1 minute ago, Tommy Matthews said:

No. But I know how they work and all the good things they do. The new HQ is for a very good reason, certainly a better one than funding promoted teams’ travelling expenses. 

And that very good reason is?

[Dave Deacon]

By "new HQ" do we mean the one in Bodmin, or the one being planned for somewhere in mid-Cornwall?

[le boss]

1 minute ago, Dave Deacon said:

By "new HQ" do we mean the one in Bodmin, or the one being planned for somewhere in mid-Cornwall?

Must be a very good reason for building that one too eh?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

At the end of the day it all depends on money.

If you dont have a sugar daddy or reliable sponsorship then the cost is simply prohibitive. 

[mattelot]

7 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

At the end of the day it all depends on money.

If you dont have a sugar daddy or reliable sponsorship then the cost is simply prohibitive. 

Or local players with understanding bosses that will allow them to have time off from work as and when needed .And understanding families .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, mattelot said:

Or local players with understanding bosses that will allow them to have time off from work as and when needed .And understanding families .

That was 30/40 years ago, it's not like that anymore. 

But. If you're being paid enough to pay the mortgage and a few bills...game on!

[le boss]

37 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

That was 30/40 years ago, it's not like that anymore. 

But. If you're being paid enough to pay the mortgage and a few bills...game on!

Can somebody give WC Rowe a call just to put a smile on Olders face!! At least you had free use of all that council machinery back in the day to create a great pitch at Kernick - or don't you remember that either...….