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Jezza100

Club debts

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Hey guys,

it was just a quick question really for all the players of clubs out there, did you realise that YOU are responsible for club debts if they are unpaid by your club? 
 

I can imagine 90 percent of players that sign up for a kick about on a Saturday are pretty unaware of this, As I was until I received an email today from the FA. Due to st keverne being unable to raise a side this season and inevitably folding, all players had an email today saying as they couldn’t reach the club and if continues to be unable to do so then all players would split the debt and be banned from playing until this was paid off. 
 

This was a bit of a kick in the teeth as I only signed up to try and prevent them from folding and helping them out in as many games as possible and would definitely think twice about just bumping the numbers in future!


From what I am now aware St keverne will be paying the fine and it won’t go to the level I have stated but what’s people views on this as I’m intrigued to see if players knew of their responsibility if your club doesn't pay its fines.

 

 

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Try looking from the clubs perspective, if all the players leave and you only have a small committee how is it fair on them to be left in debt. I think I am right in saying that all clubs are duty bound to send a record of accounts every year to their County FA. this would tell the FA how well run all clubs are. 

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My personal opinion and not one of the league etc....

The reason that teams fold most of the time is because they can't raise a team. They get players signing on for them, assuring them that they can play... But then they don't bother. 

Players will register, lose interest and stop playing. This leaves the club with a situation.

Personally, I feel that St Keverne (let's put the very sad news aside for a moment) had 29 players registered. Only seven players are required to field a side. Ideally we want 11 minimum. Those 29 players that registered for the club must take responsibility for it's demise in the sense that they haven't played the fixtures. I feel that if a club faces charges because they break league/FA ruling which is down to the players, the players should be held accountable - which is what is happening in this situation.

It's extremely sad that teams such as St Keverne are folding because they can't field sides. Players must take responsibility for this and of course, any financial penalties that have come about because of them - it's only fair that they contribute to!

It's my personal opinion, let me just make that point clear.

 

Please may I take a moment to express my condolences for the loss of Morris Thomas. He was a stalwart of the club and will be sorely missed. 

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I get your points Dave for sure. I signed up even though I work very varied hours because there was a plea to try and keep a historic club from folding. Even if this was that I could only play a game a month then That would help the cause, do you think players should abstain from doing so if it then gets quoted in numbers of players registered so they should be able to raise a side? I know quite a few others also did the same which has probably exaggerated squad numbers. Clubs are very quick to sign on any Tom **** and Harry to bolster numbers even if this be from a higher league team to play when they can or players that can play the start of the season but are moving abroad etc I know for fact that out of that signed on number there is a small amount of players available. 
 

going away from the st keverne debate though I’m talking in general terms do players know that they have signed up to take on club debts if the club does not pay them? 
 

100 percent Morris was a top top bloke and always had the clubs best interests at heart. A true gentleman.

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9 minutes ago, cornishteddyboy said:

Trying to read the posts, have St Keverne folded?

If so it starts to complicate promotion and relegation with the St Piran needing a team, as do the Combo.

I have spoken to the manager today who has said the club is definitely folding.

no worries guys was a shock to me but I get the general concencus of views and completely understand them. I thought less people would know it’s the case that players were responsible for club debts.

 

i stand corrected and thanks for the reply’s and personal views, much appreciated 

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Christ another long established club going.

We had long established Sennen, Madron, Gulval, etc all folding 2-3 years ago, and last year we seemed to had stopped the tide.

It's not money, it's not facilities, it's the lack of loyalty and commitment of players

I hope St Keverne aren't the first of a few to fold this year. 

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St keverne had a real core of older generation who have propped up the club for years, all of them retired at the start of the season so it’s been a real struggle to replace that. I don’t think it’s easy for a village right out in the sticks to find a good solid amount of week in week out players. Like you said the loyalty just doesn't seem to be there anymore.

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Good luck with collecting money from the players, is that in the constitution of the league or the FA somewhere?

If a player owes money for a booking or a red card then fair enough. But if it’s owing money for a team not fielding a side then they can take a running jump as far as I’m concerned

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I suspect what the league have done is highlight the football debt recovery scheme which covers these circumstances.

A situation made all the worse with the very sad loss of Morris.  One of lifes good guys he'll be sorely missed.

2 hours ago, cornishteddyboy said:

If so it starts to complicate promotion and relegation with the St Piran needing a team, as do the Combo.

That all depends who applies for what Paul.  I've had 2 expressions of interest from the east and one from the west already.

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1 hour ago, St Darren said:

Good luck with collecting money from the players, is that in the constitution of the league or the FA somewhere?

If a player owes money for a booking or a red card then fair enough. But if it’s owing money for a team not fielding a side then they can take a running jump as far as I’m concerned

3. Associations may take action against individuals or groups of individuals. Individuals may  be pursued where they are refusing to reimburse an individual club for a qualifying debt.

Where a Club has folded its qualifying debts may be apportioned against its registered members and officers, and action taken against them individually to recover the club’s debt.

This is the section in the FA rules which covers the debt recovery apportioned to players. Like I said all players received an email to outlining the intent to recover monies from missed fixtures from the players if the debt was not settled by the club.

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If fines are owed to the league that the club plays in, the league has the right to ask the Respected County FA for assistance in asking for players, committee members to be suspended from all football until their share of the fine is paid. This has been in place for many years 

But I can understand players who feel hard done by signing for a club, not played a game, then get stung with a fine because a club has folded 

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30 minutes ago, hedgerow said:

If fines are owed to the league that the club plays in, the league has the right to ask the Respected County FA for assistance in asking for players, committee members to be suspended from all football until their share of the fine is paid. This has been in place for many years 

But I can understand players who feel hard done by signing for a club, not played a game, then get stung with a fine because a club has folded 

And here lies the issue. 

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Just now, Dave Deacon said:

What sort of figure are we talking about here (approx range)?

I won't release the details of the amount owed however, anything above £50 can be referred to the debt recovery scheme.

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3 hours ago, Dave Deacon said:

What sort of figure are we talking about here (approx range)?

The sum for St keverne is actually very trivial it would literally work out as around £4 a player in the email sent out to all the players today. In which I would have no problems in paying whatsoever. It just got me thinking of what the ramifications would be if the debt was much much higher and players suddenly had these emails sent to them, how many would realise that they would be responsible for this debt if they had merely signed on as a possibility to play one or two games in the season to help out. 

3 hours ago, Dave Bartlam said:

And here lies the issue. 

The problem is Dave this is the norm, I would calculate possibly a quarter or maybe more of players signed on to teams around Cornwall have played less than a couple of games. You would probably have more accurate figures but I don’t think that’s something that’s ever going to change. Like I said earlier how many teams will have the following sort of players.

1) The I’m signed onto a combo team but il sign for you just in case our games rained off.

2) The I work weekends but il sign up just in case I get a couple of games in.

3) The I’m in the forces so possibly will be home for some games.

4) I’m injured but sign me on and you never know.

i was shocked when I seen the numbers you said had signed onto st keverne but when I looked at the names you can divide into these categories and leave yourself with a very low number of full time players. 
 

 

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To put this into perspective a little, whilst these rules are in place it is very rare that they actually end up being applied.  The last time to my recollection was when Mawgan folded in the Falmouth-Helston League.  That was a particularly difficult situation to deal with and in the end the clubs debts were referred to the CCFA.  About half of their players paid their share and the rest were given sine die suspensions until such time as they paid theirs.

And let's not forget that clubs can also use the scheme to recover qualifying debts from individual players.

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9 hours ago, Jezza100 said:

The sum for St keverne is actually very trivial it would literally work out as around £4 a player in the email sent out to all the players today. In which I would have no problems in paying whatsoever. It just got me thinking of what the ramifications would be if the debt was much much higher and players suddenly had these emails sent to them, how many would realise that they would be responsible for this debt if they had merely signed on as a possibility to play one or two games in the season to help out. 

The problem is Dave this is the norm, I would calculate possibly a quarter or maybe more of players signed on to teams around Cornwall have played less than a couple of games. You would probably have more accurate figures but I don’t think that’s something that’s ever going to change. Like I said earlier how many teams will have the following sort of players.

1) The I’m signed onto a combo team but il sign for you just in case our games rained off.

2) The I work weekends but il sign up just in case I get a couple of games in.

3) The I’m in the forces so possibly will be home for some games.

4) I’m injured but sign me on and you never know.

i was shocked when I seen the numbers you said had signed onto st keverne but when I looked at the names you can divide into these categories and leave yourself with a very low number of full time players. 
 

 

I do encourage teams not to sign on players who have no intention of playing. Some do it to get the required number of players registered prior to the season start date, some do it in the hope that they will actually play etc. But what it does is cover up the cracks in grassroots football.

We are quite short of players at the moment across the league which can be seen in the stats I put on our Facebook each month... I also put a stat out of how many players have registered that haven't played a single game... I've not done it this far this season but last season, it was pretty startling to see the actual number of players that didn't play a single game.

 

1 minute ago, Steve Carpenter said:

To put this into perspective a little, whilst these rules are in place it is very rare that they actually end up being applied.  The last time to my recollection was when Mawgan folded in the Falmouth-Helston League.  That was a particularly difficult situation to deal with and in the end the clubs debts were referred to the CCFA.  About half of their players paid their share and the rest were given sine die suspensions until such time as they paid theirs.

And let's not forget that clubs can also use the scheme to recover qualifying debts from individual players.

It's worth me noting that this hasn't yet gone to Cornwall FA - it hasn't been referred under the Debt Recovery Scheme... However...

Because we've had no contact from St Keverne despite multiple attempts (we only found out about Morris's passing yesterday), the league seeked the advice of Cornwall FA as this is a rare occurrence. We suspended their games at the beginning of the month because they do owe the league funds for failing to raise teams (hence the purpose of the original post). The last thing we want is to allow St Keverne to continue struggling and therefore accumulating more league charges. 

The reason that the County have been informed is purely for advice because it was pretty clear from my end that St Keverne may well be folding which threw a spanner in the works because there were charges outstanding which we must recover - we can't have one rule for one and one rule for another (we must be consistent in our application of rule).

Obviously I've put my personal feelings about the matter in my first post - I personally agree that if a team folds because they are struggling for players to play on a Matchday, those players should be held accountable for it's demise. That's not a view shared by the League - personal opinion.

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8 hours ago, Dave Bartlam said:

I personally agree that if a team folds because they are struggling for players to play on a Matchday, those players should be held accountable for it's demise.

How is that fair on the few players that do turn up every week (or at least are available)?

Or, some of the players signed may not of even had chance to play a game before they folded? i.e coming back from injury or working last 2 weekends but available next week.
Maybe the manager should take the blame for signing so many players. That's not the players fault.

However the manager tried to sign any player that he could to try and save the club.
Pointing the blame at anyone is hard.

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