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JonColenzo

Conceding a Game

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As much as I feel for any club struggling to raise a side, how many times in a season is it allowed, I thought it was 3 times and out? Don’t get me wrong, nobody wants to see a club / team in difficulty but we are faced with playing a clubs Peninsula side midweek then game cancelled Saturday because Peninsula side have their own fixture

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They can do it as many times as they can afford. 
 

There must be a deterrent to clubs failing to raise a side. I know of teams that have had 9 players and would rather take a points and financial penalty rather than “be hammered and embarrassed”. Yesterday Four Lanes Reserves turned up with 7 - played the game. Two weeks previous, Newlyn Non-Athletico and Constantine played with 10... 
 

When a team is unable to raise a side, in the first instance the game is awarded to the opposition and they are given a fine (£50 in Trelawny). The second time, the game is awarded to the opposition, the team are docked three points and a fine awarded. This continues up until -12 points each time. The season before last, Madron ended the season on almost -40 points because of it.

 

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This happened to Foxhole last week & my thoughts are its the other team that suffer. Before I received the call last week I had 4 committee men forking & marking the pitch, we had just ordered pasties for after game refreshments. With no game the social club missed out on a £400 baf take, all in all an expensive day for our club.

My point is it is the club willing to play the game that should receive some sort of compensation for the fixture not being played & £50 is not enough in my eyes more like £100 minimum

 

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Firstly, it's clear Godolphin are struggling, which I think we all agree is something none of us want to see. Hopefully, they can sort out their current availability issues and see out the season. Good luck to them.

On the subject to conceding games, I think the current ECPL rule does not adequately deter clubs from doing so. In fact, in some cases makes it easy to not play games that may "effect their goal difference". Case in point is that Godolphin are bottom of league, losing 7 games, having conceded 3 of those this season, yet their goal difference is only -8. The other side of that, is that the clubs they should have played have also missed an opportunity.

The same could be side of clubs conceding games against Mount Gould recently. Why take a hammering, when you can concede and cough up just £50?

We've played Foxhole with a scratch side and Mount Gould with a less than full squad and conceded 9 goals in the process. On the face of it, it would have been better for us to have conceded those games and possibly benefited from the 7 goal swing in goal difference towards the end of the season. It doesn't seem fair does it?

The rule needs changing next season. The fine needs to be higher, say £100 (with that money possibly going to the opposition), the same 3-point deduction, but the game should not be awarded to the opposition, it should be rescheduled and played at a later date, which was always the rule in other leagues I have been involved in.

Thoughts?

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It is a very difficult subject. I agree something should be done. Hands up any manager who on a Friday night has 14 players to pick from but come Saturday afternoon are left with 9. The argument about what a club should be fined need to remember that if the club is in trouble player wise then I suggest the club has other issues. If you charge a club a big fine then don't be surprised if clubs say 'stuff it.' Why should we bother. They cannot help it if players decide for whatever reason they don't want to play. Don't forget these people are volunteers, they work their socks off to try and run a club.

 

The big issue which has been pointed out is when it comes to what punishment should be given. A club losing three points is the right decision. The problem comes when a club is not punished by any goal 'Fine' as this could actually affect winning the league or avoiding relegation. I personally have no idea. How do you decide on a goal 'Fine' that is seen to be fair. I would suggest clubs in all leagues discuss it among themselves as to what they feel should be the punishment. Then put it to a league committee meeting. Any suggestion will upset someone so it is never is going to be right but I think if the respective leagues put out a circular to all clubs with ifs and buts suggestions then discuss it at committee before agreeing a formulae at the annual AGM. Who knows it may surprise us.

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1 hour ago, ECPL said:

It is a very difficult subject. I agree something should be done. Hands up any manager who on a Friday night has 14 players to pick from but come Saturday afternoon are left with 9. The argument about what a club should be fined need to remember that if the club is in trouble player wise then I suggest the club has other issues. If you charge a club a big fine then don't be surprised if clubs say 'stuff it.' Why should we bother. They cannot help it if players decide for whatever reason they don't want to play. Don't forget these people are volunteers, they work their socks off to try and run a club.

 

The big issue which has been pointed out is when it comes to what punishment should be given. A club losing three points is the right decision. The problem comes when a club is not punished by any goal 'Fine' as this could actually affect winning the league or avoiding relegation. I personally have no idea. How do you decide on a goal 'Fine' that is seen to be fair. I would suggest clubs in all leagues discuss it among themselves as to what they feel should be the punishment. Then put it to a league committee meeting. Any suggestion will upset someone so it is never is going to be right but I think if the respective leagues put out a circular to all clubs with ifs and buts suggestions then discuss it at committee before agreeing a formulae at the annual AGM. Who knows it may surprise us.

£50 is a big enough fine,3pts deducted,awarded win to the other team & with goals given in line with there average match score.A little bit different i know but a few weeks back we ( St Stephen ) had over half our 1sts unable to play do to some sort of virus which was causing some not very nice things happening at either end,we asked if we could postpone the game ( torpoint away mid week) in the am of that day but got told it was to short a notice to cancel which i think is a bit poor but as it turned out should of come away with a point which would of been great but just didnt see it over the line. Point being it was a reasonable request but still got told we had to play so played the fixture with a very weekend side so this could be something that needs looking at as well.

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3 hours ago, ECPL said:

 The problem comes when a club is not punished by any goal 'Fine' as this could actually affect winning the league or avoiding relegation. I personally have no idea. How do you decide on a goal 'Fine' that is seen to be fair. I would suggest clubs in all leagues discuss it among themselves as to what they feel should be the punishment. Then put it to a league committee meeting. Any suggestion will upset someone so it is never is going to be right but I think if the respective leagues put out a circular to all clubs with ifs and buts suggestions then discuss it at committee before agreeing a formulae at the annual AGM. Who knows it may surprise us.

Unless something has changed recently, the FA does not allow the 'awarding' of goals on conceded matches.

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I think the only thing that needs to change is the awarding of the points to the opponents. The game should be rescheduled. That way nobody "benefits" and the "offending team" are punished by a points deduction that doesn't affect another other side, or goal difference.

 

15 hours ago, Jason Prynne said:

£50 is a big enough fine,3pts deducted,awarded win to the other team & with goals given in line with there average match score.A little bit different i know but a few weeks back we ( St Stephen ) had over half our 1sts unable to play do to some sort of virus which was causing some not very nice things happening at either end,we asked if we could postpone the game ( torpoint away mid week) in the am of that day but got told it was to short a notice to cancel which i think is a bit poor but as it turned out should of come away with a point which would of been great but just didnt see it over the line. Point being it was a reasonable request but still got told we had to play so played the fixture with a very weekend side so this could be something that needs looking at as well.

I think your request was reasonable Jason, but rules are rules. The precedent would be set, meaning that clubs could be requesting postponements for bouts of D&V, rather than admit that they can't raise a side. How would the league differentiate between genuine and non-genuine requests? It was a great game by the way!

 

Failing to fulfill a fixture - for whatever reason - has to carry a points deduction. Harsh as that may sound - even in genuine cases. The debate for me, is whether the points should be awarded to the opposition, or whether the game is still rescheduled at a later date. For me, the latter is the fairer solution for the rest of the league members and the affect on the outcome of the league positions.

So Godolphin failed to raise a side against Foxhole. What if Foxhole win the league by 2 points over Mount Gould... is that fair on MG?

Or vice versa, MG were awarded the points v St Blazey... what if they win the league by 2 points or St Blazey avoid relegation on goal difference?

 

 

 

 

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There will never be an easy solution to this problem, obviously I have some bias towards the G. It's a difficult time at the G with the firsts struggling a bit this always has a knock on to the reserve regardless what club you are.

The G do manage to get a side out midweek mainly, from what I've seen, with players playing reserves on Tuesday and first Wednesday to get the fixture fulfilled and not to intentionally "strengthen" the side. Obviously this is not possible with both playing on a Saturday.

I'm hoping the G can turn things around and get back on track. As for goal difference, fines etc I've seen this problem with out solution for the countless years I've been involved in local football. In the Bournemouth league it used to be a a fine and a 3-0 win awarded to the other team, which sort of kept all parties happy.

I also feel the restructure of the league's has had a knock on effect with clubs maybe stepping up levels beyond their means or ability.

Savo

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Having been a club secretary , manager plus everything else that's involved in running a club  ( net putting up , pitch cutting , line marking , kit washing and so on, and so on ) and also a member of a league management committee , I can see both sides of the problem . From the league perspective you have to follow the rules and do what you think is right for other clubs and impose fines for calling games off even though you may have sympathy for the offending club . From the club point of view the money has to be found to pay the fines , its very , very rare for the players to contribute to the £50 call off fine . Several call offs soon mount to hundreds of pounds . The annoying thing about the situation , certainly as I found it , is that some of the reasons for a player calling off  ( not all I hasten to add ) is a total lack of commitment to the club .  Once upon a time the time between 5,00 o'clock on Saturday afternoon to 2.00 o'clock the following Saturday afternoon was a total waste of time . You had to fill the time  by going to work , eating , sleeping and socialising  until the most important thing in life KICK OFF .Sadly this is no longer the case for many players ," my sisters dog is ill so I have to be with her ", " I'm going Christmas shopping " ( in October ? ) and one of the most annoying , from the captain and star player , " my girlfriend wants to see the seals on the beach this afternoon "( the beach in question is a mile and a half away from the football pitch ) . As a result of several such call offs the secretary is faced with a problem more complex than B****T  , does he call off with 9 players and pay the fine or does he risk  attempting to  play with 9 and the other players refusing to play without a full team ? . I think most secretaries take the situation regarding calling a game off as a personal defeat and do it reluctantly and then worry about finding the fine money . The players responsible aren't particularly concerned because someone else will find the money and find time to ring all the parties involved to tell them the game is off , BUT !!!!!! woe betide the manager if " he doesn't pick me next week because my mates won't play if I'm not playing "

Apologies for a boring post , I don't have the excuse of bad weather to post on the best forum in football as the sun is bright here in Norfolk  and my allotment needs digging over .

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13 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Good post Fenman.

Sunshine! What's that?

Cornwall is on the point of floating out into the Western approaches  with the rain we're having here, 30 odd hours continuous and counting...pouring down as I post!

I am sitting here typing out a programme for this coming Saturday and thinking to myself, another for the recycling bin just like last weeks!

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