The Promotion Of Youth.

[MasterDebater]

Afternoon folks. Something has been bothering me for some time now and rather than take to social media to rant, I'd prefer others opinions on said topic. 

On almost a weekly basis I'm seeing young footballers (fresh from youth football in most cases), bouncing around between different clubs for what are often, NOT the right reasons. I've found myself questioning these reasons and my concern that things stem from an egotistical (be it individual or parental) at such an impressionable point in football careers, has led me to start this discussion. 

1) Is it bragging rights? 

Are these young footballers so desperate to tell their peers the standard they're are playing is higher than others? Do they get fulfillment from 5-10 mins at the end, (or worst case an unused sub) as long as small brown envelope contains enough pocket money for the weekend? Is it the parents bragging rights? 'My son is better than your son' mentality. 'He was captain of his youth side, so he must surely start in your 1st team', 'but he's played (5 mins) for the first team why should he drop to the reserves'. Some of the reasoning I've heard is truly laughable. There will always be an element of self or parental promotion, but should this warrant a complete leap over the majority, if not all of the adult leagues available?

2) Are they simply not ready? 

The number of youth players making the leap from youth football to the upper echelons of Cornish football has increased 10 fold. There seems to be a huge emphasis on development at youth level, but why is this (again, in most but not all cases) completely lost when they transition to the adult game? Should the coaches do more to help them in the transition? Could a bit of honesty go a considerably long way? 'I think while you're developing your footie you'd be better suited to.....'   More recently I've witnessed young lads who are physically capable (strong, fast, athletic) but lack the simplest of football fundamentals. The ability to communicate, or make the correct choices under minimal pressure, and even pass a ball more than 5 yards on occasion. However purely based on their accolades as YOUTH players they are selected or pushed straight to the top leagues in the county. The mind boggles. 

3) There are exceptions. 

I'm under no illusions that there are players, coming from an ever growing Youth Football environment, who are good enough. I've been lucky enough to watch alot of Peninsula football over the last couple of seasons, and they're has been many a stand out performance from 17/18 year old lads.

I personally think the thin line between ready or not ready will always be wobbly. However, with the other leagues in Cornwall (junior and senior) struggling for teams/players, is this not the time to be ensuring young lads get the development they need to eventually reach their goals of hopefully playing as high a level as possible. The opportunity to play men's football has never been so available, yet unless it has some element of 'Oooh look at me' or affiliation to the top level, it's seems there's no interest.

I do hope I'm not the only person of this thinking, and in no way is this a dig at youth or adult coaches, (I am one myself) but surely a concentrated effort to blow less smoke would benefit the youngsters development and aid the transition to Mens football. At the same time benefitting the leagues at each step, rather than having a surplus of young players simply not ready for the level they're trying to achieve. 

Thanks for reading. 

 

[6times]

It’s a tricky one tbf as unfortunately the people that run kids teams are generally parents who know very little about the game , and they will rely on bigger stronger kids and play route 1 football which will work at that age , then win games and leagues ,and the COACH (I say lightly) then feels he’s doing a good job . What iv seen the really good technical players generally rely on their ability and are a bit behind physically ( these are the ones the managers /coaches) in men’s football need to be patient with and encourage give time too,also the players themselves and the parents also need to be patient and almost dip in and out of maybe 1st and 2nd teams dependant on standard . But yep there does seem a big rush maybe it is egos but does any club locally have in place a coach/person to help players with the transition and someone that they can trust to be honest with them in regard where they are and what people are saying . Either way with patience and desire those with the ability will generally get to where the should be by 21 and those strong youth players at 16 may well (probably) end up in the lower leagues. 

[Martin Eddy]

It also depends on how well the club is doing and your coaches ideals.some clubs have a big youth set up and rarely promote or take from other clubs.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Its simpler than all of that.

They are simply all told they are better than they actually are.

So they won't play junior football because it's below their abilities,  when actually it's exactly where they should play to learn the game.

[MasterDebater]

Both good responses.

6times I agree with what your saying and locally no, there isn't someone in place, but should it not be a coaches responsibility difficult as it may be, to be honest? As for your point about the cream rising to the top by 21 I agree, but these are the players who will spend time and hone their skills at a suitable standard. It's the others I worry about. The ones who without guidance believe (or coaches/parents do) that they need to be with first teams around the county, when they are so obviously not capable. The silver spoon treatment will mean they'll make a career as journeymen. A CV of multiple clubs without ever getting match time or improving their game. 

Postman Pat I see what you're saying and there are most definitely clubs who recruit only experience but that's an issue for another day. As for the coaches ideals, from a youth coach perspective you'll want the best for all your players, but again does that mean you should be dishonest and tell them they're better than they are? It becomes contagious and more likely than not, affects the parents opinions as well. From an Adult coach point of view, success is what every coach strives for but that could come in many forms. Its nice to win games and trophies, but it's also a success if you can, for example, bring a 16/17/18 year old young man into an adult environment, watch them progress over time, getting good minutes on the board week in week out, in a standard that suits, and grow into a player capable of moving up through the steps of Cornish Football. Having a small or large youth set up doesn't affect that. 

I do agree that alot depends on how the club is doing, but at the same time there needs to be some realism injected into local football. It may just be the world we live in, but this sense of entitlement stemming from their achievements needs to be harnessed. As I said before there are 100% young men capable of making the jump straight away but it's only a small percentile compared to the number making said leap. 

[BAGMAN]

A timely post as I've just read this on Twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/cove_billy/status/1175713598414491648

I agree with MasterDebater in the fact that the 'problem' is twofold: 1. Some coaches/managers are loathe to lose the youngsters rather than be honest with them, explaining where improvements need to be made but instead end up putting them in a team where they are clearly out of their depth. This helps neither party. 2. The players (and even more so, the parents) have had many seasons being the big fish in a small Youth Football pond and then when the real hard work begins and they are not guaranteed a starting place, they move on to where they feel their 'talents' will be appreciated. I too have witnessed this first hand where a conversation between coach and parent has been overheard to the tune of "my Johnny is too good for the Third team and if he HAS to drop in to the Reserves, will he still get his money!!" Ridiculous!!

There will be the obvious exceptions where the youngsters are clearly ready to make the step up and should be encouraged, mentored and monitored accordingly. Physically, this is a fine balancing act and will require buy-in from both parties. Good coaching, active dialogue with both player and parent should ensure as far as possible, a smooth transition to adult football. Interesting to hear of others experiences and opinions.

[6times]

Basic basic quote of someone who probably doesn’t understand, if a young player is on a technical level way above junior football he will pick up bad habits from poor players so for someone like that  it may be best for them to sit and play bit parts and learn at training and matches until the become physically ready . Every young player is a different case, but just playing anywhere at any level isn’t the correct way to encourage/promote/help young 16/17 year old players to stay in the game . And unfortunately in Cornwall there are too many clubs in clubs if that makes sense where 1st 2nds 3rds are run totally separate to each other . And they will have a group of 30 something mates running a clique in a reserve team and not encouraging/promoting/wanting young players . Here and now attitude , it’s why a lot of clubs are struggling for players volunteers,  

25 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Its simpler than all of that.

They are simply all told they are better than they actually are.

So they won't play junior football because it's below their abilities,  when actually it's exactly where they should play to learn the game.

Above reply was too this response sorry I’m new here 😁

[le boss]

I think that some of the problem stems from a change in attitudes in the schools - they seem to promote "the taking part" and inclusivity rather than competition which can breed quitters or people who will move elsewhere to get some "love". I too have noticed that basic skills in youth players on the whole are sadly lacking which begs the question, are the youth coaches instilling these skills or is it just turn up for a fun kick about? There are obviously exceptions to the rule but I see it more and more and the basics are transferrable surely. All too often I see these coaches dressed in their club kit and I have thought - "when and where did you play football? Tv is also a big factor  - it does make me chuckle to see these youngsters posturing and posing before and after a game but like church mice on it - they even have their wags with them!!! Sorry if this seems a little harsh and I accept it is not all doom and gloom but it is a contentious subject and if and parent/coach wants to challenge my opinion face to face then I will be happy to discuss it further. All clubs need these people who gladly give up their time and they are to be applauded for their efforts but may some need to be more reflective. 

[6times]

7 minutes ago, le boss said:

I think that some of the problem stems from a change in attitudes in the schools - they seem to promote "the taking part" and inclusivity rather than competition which can breed quitters or people who will move elsewhere to get some "love". I too have noticed that basic skills in youth players on the whole are sadly lacking which begs the question, are the youth coaches instilling these skills or is it just turn up for a fun kick about? There are obviously exceptions to the rule but I see it more and more and the basics are transferrable surely. All too often I see these coaches dressed in their club kit and I have thought - "when and where did you play football? Tv is also a big factor  - it does make me chuckle to see these youngsters posturing and posing before and after a game but like church mice on it - they even have their wags with them!!! Sorry if this seems a little harsh and I accept it is not all doom and gloom but it is a contentious subject and if and parent/coach wants to challenge my opinion face to face then I will be happy to discuss it further. All clubs need these people who gladly give up their time and they are to be applauded for their efforts but may some need to be more reflective. 

Yep too many look at me in the youth system ref the coaches with badges, but these tac board coaches don’t pass on the message that a ball and wall and time is where you pick up your ball control and that is the basics needed , they also don’t believe in /see in the players shortcomings  because it’s a mollycoddle youth world . Then when they hit football people at 16 it scares a lot out of the game . For me the whole system needs looking at ! 

 

[le boss]

6 minutes ago, 6times said:

Yep too many look at me in the youth system ref the coaches with badges, but these tac board coaches don’t pass on the message that a ball and wall and time is where you pick up your ball control and that is the basics needed , they also don’t believe in /see in the players shortcomings  because it’s a mollycoddle youth world . Then when they hit football people at 16 it scares a lot out of the game . For me the whole system needs looking at ! 

 

How often do you see a gang of lads playing on a piece of grass, going at it hammer and tong? Not cool I guess and it is difficult playing whilst holding their iPhone 11 and keeping their media profile current...….

[6times]

10 minutes ago, le boss said:

How often do you see a gang of lads playing on a piece of grass, going at it hammer and tong? Not cool I guess and it is difficult playing whilst holding their iPhone 11 and keeping their media profile current...….

Yep but their  good on fifa with an x box controller in their hand , so they must be 1st team material .😁 but yep on a serious note a lot of the fault with the young players in today’s world where you can’t tell a youngster that he needs to improve is that the youth coaches don’t know /understand football and blow smoke up the arse of players who ain’t very good but can kick it a long way . Whole youth systems are unfortunately run by mums /dads who don’t understand and maybe harsh but so are the youth leagues . 

Those people are responsible for the state of Cornish football . And can anyone say the standards are getting better ? 

 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Too much football too soon.

Jumpers for goalposts is the way forward, play league football when you get to 16 like the old way. 

Reduce televised football to encourage youngsters to watch local football, get them wanting to play for a local team again.

Not going to happen is it...lol.

[Tommy Matthews]

Decent coaches these days coach using the Four Corners model. It’s hardly new and rugby has its own version but essentially it’s a way where you can identify a player’s strengths and weaknesses and help them put it right. 

Technical - Physical - Psychological- Social. A player may be technically very good, a physical specimen, socially very bright and a good mixer but fall apart when the big games come round. Unless you’re good in all four corners you’re not the complete player. This is how you’re judged at academy level and youth coaches at grass roots are encouraged to try to adopt a similar model. 

I used to give all my players match marks at training from the previous Sunday’s game. But first I’d ask them what they thought I’d give them and justify their reasons. That way they could analyse their own performances and develop their own ways of improving. It also stopped them from listening to their families telling them how well they played as they knew what I was likely to say and it gave them an honest appraisal of how they were doing. 

Did it work? Well most of them went on to play at a good level and three are currently playing for Falmouth Town first team. Ask them yourselves. 

I don’t have all the answers and nowadays there are a lot of extra distractions that come into play, but getting regular game time is very important and having a manager who will give you a chance and take you out of the firing line when things aren’t going your way is also important. At 16 it doesn’t mean you’re capable of playing every match, youth players don’t always have the consistency, and a patience is critical as a manager, player and parent. 

Just my view having coached kids from 5 years old to elite level  

 

[le boss]

9 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Too much football too soon.

Jumpers for goalposts is the way forward, play league football when you get to 16 like the old way. 

Reduce televised football to encourage youngsters to watch local football, get them wanting to play for a local team again.

Not going to happen is it...lol.

Players used to be able to play before their 16th birthday - that's a different issue tho

2 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

Decent coaches these days coach using the Four Corners model. It’s hardly new and rugby has its own version but essentially it’s a way where you can identify a player’s strengths and weaknesses and help them put it right. 

Technical - Physical - Psychological- Social. A player may be technically very good, a physical specimen, socially very bright and a good mixer but fall apart when the big games come round. Unless you’re good in all four corners you’re not the complete player. This is how you’re judged at academy level and youth coaches at grass roots are encouraged to try to adopt a similar model. 

I used to give all my players match marks at training from the previous Sunday’s game. But first I’d ask them what they thought I’d give them and justify their reasons. That way they could analyse their own performances and develop their own ways of improving. It also stopped them from listening to their families telling them how well they played as they knew what I was likely to say and it gave them an honest appraisal of how they were doing. 

Did it work? Well most of them went on to play at a good level and three are currently playing for Falmouth Town first team. Ask them yourselves. 

I don’t have all the answers and nowadays there are a lot of extra distractions that come into play, but getting regular game time is very important and having a manager who will give you a chance and take you out of the firing line when things aren’t going your way is also important. At 16 it doesn’t mean you’re capable of playing every match, youth players don’t always have the consistency, and a patience is critical as a manager, player and parent. 

Just my view having coached kids from 5 years old to elite level  

 

I like the sound of that but does it really deal with the pushy parent syndrome? Is this rolled out across all ages because I would worry that the very young ones wouldn't have the intellect to judge their performance or articulate their views. Is this Four Corners model an FA thing and how strongly is it "pushed " onto coaches in the county?

[Tommy Matthews]

5 minutes ago, le boss said:

Players used to be able to play before their 16th birthday - that's a different issue tho

We both did I’m sure, but that doesn’t mean it was a good thing. When you’ve got morons telling you they’re going to break your leg in the next tackle it’s probably not the thing a 15 year old needs to hear to keep him in the game. Those with strength in the psychological corner will handle it, those without might be lost to the game and prefer their evening FIFA. 

[le boss]

1 minute ago, Tommy Matthews said:

We both did I’m sure, but that doesn’t mean it was a good thing. When you’ve got morons telling you they’re going to break your leg in the next tackle it’s probably not the thing a 15 year old needs to hear to keep him in the game. Those with strength in the psychological corner will handle it, those without might be lost to the game and prefer their evening FIFA. 

Character building I think its called lol

[Tommy Matthews]

15 minutes ago, le boss said:

Players used to be able to play before their 16th birthday - that's a different issue tho

I like the sound of that but does it really deal with the pushy parent syndrome? Is this rolled out across all ages because I would worry that the very young ones wouldn't have the intellect to judge their performance or articulate their views. Is this Four Corners model an FA thing and how strongly is it "pushed " onto coaches in the county?

It’s part and parcel of your basic level 1 coaching badge and an integral part of Long Term Player Development (LAPD). It’s set in everything through the coaching system so even coaches coaching kids of 5-6 years old should be using it in its basic form. It’s age appropriate and used in professional level at every club. 

Giving players their match marks was introduced slowly and players and parents were informed why and eventually the players understood more about their performances and how to improve. If their match mark wasn’t the same as mine I’d explain why and give them ways to improve. Sometimes they were harsh on themselves and I’d make sure they knew they’d done well. 

10 minutes ago, le boss said:

Character building I think its called lol

Or is it bullying? 

[6times]

17 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

Decent coaches these days coach using the Four Corners model. It’s hardly new and rugby has its own version but essentially it’s a way where you can identify a player’s strengths and weaknesses and help them put it right. 

Technical - Physical - Psychological- Social. A player may be technically very good, a physical specimen, socially very bright and a good mixer but fall apart when the big games come round. Unless you’re good in all four corners you’re not the complete player. This is how you’re judged at academy level and youth coaches at grass roots are encouraged to try to adopt a similar model. 

I used to give all my players match marks at training from the previous Sunday’s game. But first I’d ask them what they thought I’d give them and justify their reasons. That way they could analyse their own performances and develop their own ways of improving. It also stopped them from listening to their families telling them how well they played as they knew what I was likely to say and it gave them an honest appraisal of how they were doing. 

Did it work? Well most of them went on to play at a good level and three are currently playing for Falmouth Town first team. Ask them yourselves. 

I don’t have all the answers and nowadays there are a lot of extra distractions that come into play, but getting regular game time is very important and having a manager who will give you a chance and take you out of the firing line when things aren’t going your way is also important. At 16 it doesn’t mean you’re capable of playing every match, youth players don’t always have the consistency, and a patience is critical as a manager, player and parent. 

Just my view having coached kids from 5 years old to elite level  

 

Tommy all very good but  go around the youth leagues and listen to the coaches watch the players in terms of understanding. 

And in terms of you ! to Elite level ? Is that a thing in Cornwall pretty sure elite is pro, quinny, etherington even Jamie day got out the Cornwall way !! long before their 13th let alone 16th birthday !! 

 

Four corners model !!! Lapd!!! Christ !! 

Really have all the fancy names coaching jargon!! 

All about desire and a want to be the best 

coaches need to be more honest and tell young players that it’s up to them . 

Coaches can point but youngsters need to do it for themselves.

players make players .

[baldy]

13 minutes ago, le boss said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

We both did I’m sure, but that doesn’t mean it was a good thing. When you’ve got morons telling you they’re going to break your leg in the next tackle it’s probably not the thing a 15 year old needs to hear to keep him in the game. Those with strength in the psychological corner will handle it, those without might be lost to the game and prefer their evening FIFA. 

The “I’ll break you leg” quote is as valid today as it was 60 years ago. Can end a nascent career. All players should strive to play at the highest level as possible, otherwise why bother playing at all? Otherwise take up tiddlywinks or darts. The game is in an interesting period where the top players earn fantastic salaries but the “trickledown” is not evident. One can blame only the FA / Premier League (protecting their own). 

[Tommy Matthews]

I’ve just spent the last 25 years involved in youth coaching. Etherington is my nephew,  Day went to Peterborough because of me so I actually do know a bit about it. 

I know that best practice is not alive and kicking everywhere but the best club setups usually have qualified coaches. I hear garbage coming from the benches at SWPL level so I’m not expecting it from all kids coaches who are usually parents giving up their time. 

I spent 10 years in charge of the County Youth Team and the standard is extremely high. Kids coming out of the country’s top academies and still wanting to make the grade. 

If you are not familiar with this jargon then maybe you should take up some bedtime reading. 

[le boss]

30 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

It’s part and parcel of your basic level 1 coaching badge and an integral part of Long Term Player Development (LAPD). It’s set in everything through the coaching system so even coaches coaching kids of 5-6 years old should be using it in its basic form. It’s age appropriate and used in professional level at every club. 

Giving players their match marks was introduced slowly and players and parents were informed why and eventually the players understood more about their performances and how to improve. If their match mark wasn’t the same as mine I’d explain why and give them ways to improve. Sometimes they were harsh on themselves and I’d make sure they knew they’d done well. 

Or is it bullying? 

No I don't think it is. Maybe intimidation but that comes in all guises, some of which im sure you used in your playing career perhaps just a little more subtley. Someone, 40 years ago, did indeed threaten to break my leg before a start of the game and then asked if I knew who he was. I said I didn't know him and waited with baited breath. I decided to make a b-line for him when the game started and vowed never to back down - he was a revered player in the county but his intimidation did not work. That's how you deal with threats. I have never backed down because I would have been beaten before I started. 

[6times]

22 minutes ago, Tommy Matthews said:

I’ve just spent the last 25 years involved in youth coaching. Etherington is my nephew,  Day went to Peterborough because of me so I actually do know a bit about it. 

I know that best practice is not alive and kicking everywhere but the best club setups usually have qualified coaches. I hear garbage coming from the benches at SWPL level so I’m not expecting it from all kids coaches who are usually parents giving up their time. 

I spent 10 years in charge of the County Youth Team and the standard is extremely high. Kids coming out of the country’s top academies and still wanting to make the grade. 

If you are not familiar with this jargon then maybe you should take up some bedtime reading. 

Don’t take the jargon personally but read back through quotes!!!! 

Coaches are all me me me !!!!!!!!!! 

you had just reiterated my point !!! 

Desire and individuals make players coaches can merely point the way . 

[Tommy Matthews]

6 minutes ago, le boss said:

No I don't think it is. Maybe intimidation but that comes in all guises, some of which im sure you used in your playing career perhaps just a little more subtley. Someone, 40 years ago, did indeed threaten to break my leg before a start of the game and then asked if I knew who he was. I said I didn't know him and waited with baited breath. I decided to make a b-line for him when the game started and vowed never to back down - he was a revered player in the county but his intimidation did not work. That's how you deal with threats. I have never backed down because I would have been beaten before I started. 

Good job you did and had the balls to stand up for yourself. Not everyone is you and for some it takes a year or two longer. 

 

2 minutes ago, 6times said:

Don’t take the jargon personally but read back through quotes!!!! 

Coaches are all me me me !!!!!!!!!! 

you had just reiterated my point !!! 

Desire and individuals make players coaches can merely point the way . 

Good coaches give players the will to improve. The ones that want to badly enough will play at the highest level they can. 

Ask questions that require players to think and figure things out for themselves. Then when they’re confronted with a situation that is unfamiliar they’ll work it out on the pitch. Those will be your best players. The ones who don’t need telling and make more good decisions than bad ones. 

Tell a good player once and he’ll do it for a month. Tell a bad player once and he might do it once. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

20 hours ago, 6times said:

Basic basic quote of someone who probably doesn’t understand, if a young player is on a technical level way above junior football he will pick up bad habits from poor players so for someone like that  it may be best for them to sit and play bit parts and learn at training and matches until the become physically ready . Every young player is a different case, but just playing anywhere at any level isn’t the correct way to encourage/promote/help young 16/17 year old players to stay in the game . And unfortunately in Cornwall there are too many clubs in clubs if that makes sense where 1st 2nds 3rds are run totally separate to each other . And they will have a group of 30 something mates running a clique in a reserve team and not encouraging/promoting/wanting young players . Here and now attitude , it’s why a lot of clubs are struggling for players volunteers,  

Above reply was too this response sorry I’m new here 😁

I understand 6times, I'm not including the exceptions to the rule I posted.

My own grandson was run around all over Cornwall and Devon thinking he had a chance, I had a chat and he came to us to sit on the bench,  couldn't handle that so moved down to a combo side for game time.

3 years later he's a league above us, would not be there if he did not move or get game time.

Got to be playing in my opinion so they can be seen.

Whether that is in junior or senior football does not really matter in the short term. 

[Xanie25]

My son played at 16 in the SWPL and wanted to progress and carry playing football which he loves. He worked hard at training and listened to criticism regularly but 4 seasons on he is still at the same club. He has not been pushed to play by us but did need lifts to matches until he learnt to drive. He has been well supported by the managers and his team. He has played regularly for the first team and dropped down to the reserves if he needed extra minutes on the pitch or he was told he was not playing well enough. Luckily he is able to be shouted at, he can take criticism he accepts decisions and has played for no brown envelopes and received no travelling expenses often travelling miles to maybe sit on the bench for a whole match but knows he has to get the experience and grow in a very competitive league.

Don't knock all the youth especially those who are team players and train hard and have the skills and mental ability to try and succeed at a higher level. You are right that many are put off at this level but I am proud of my son he has won titles but is happy to put on that club shirt and play the best he can and give 100 percent