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I have a horrible feeling that we are going to see serious crowd trouble in the future if this farce carries on . Yesterday we had  goals disallowed at Norwich and Brighton , Norwich fans are still seething  because they possibly lost 2 valuable points , fortunately Brighton won anyway so that calmed things down a bit . . Today Liverpool scored with a goal that was disallowed by the referee only for it to be overruled by VAR . Wolves then had a goal disallowed because , as in the Norwich goal , the scorer was  a fraction of an inch offside . Many fans can be volatile in certain situations if they sense an injustice . I accept that we all have different opinions on VAR , many say rules are rules and should be abided by , many are so biased toward their own team that they will see injustice in anything against their team . This farce continues and yet surrounding the referee , wrestling at corners , diving etc. is still not clamped down on . My opinion is that the authorities are sanitising the game by  working to such minute measurements regarding offside  and this will lead to serious crowd disorder . My thoughts may seem far fetched but we've already seen thing thrown onto the pitch in protest recently .

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The biggest problem for many years has been Offside. Far too many tweaks to it and still it’s controversial. Many years ago Jimmy Hill suggested no offside unless 18 yards from the goal line (extending the edge of the penalty area all the way to the touchlines). It really is getting ridiculous now, you can’t celebrate a goal for your team because it is always reviewed. Even when you are convinced all is ok (like Wolves today), there is that nagging doubt that it will be cancelled. This is not the game we grew up with. Those who don’t support a Premiership side (England only, I now realise) will wonder what all the fuss is about. VAR in its current form will ruin the game and drive supporters away. We all know TV pays the money but I think even they are getting frustrated with VAR. Time for a major rethink.

PS for those who always thought the “big” sides got the favours of the referee, maybe that still applies to the VAR referees!

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The way this is going, especially after this past weekend, I think they should keep the goal line tech and, get rid of VAR. One thing VAR has proved I think is that 99% of the time the referees get it right. Let the referees continue to do their job and ditch VAR.

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11 minutes ago, Keith B said:

The way this is going, especially after this past weekend, I think they should keep the goal line tech and, get rid of VAR. One thing VAR has proved I think is that 99% of the time the referees get it right. Let the referees continue to do their job and ditch VAR.

Correct...offside by a hand...ridiculous! 

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With the time it takes to have a quick VAR, and then time added on at the end for VAR stoppages. we’ll soon be having Premier League matches that take longer than the lumbering American Football “game”!
Maybe we should start dividing the game into quarters to save the poor players becoming overtired!

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On 30/12/2019 at 22:39, Bruegel the Elder said:

With the time it takes to have a quick VAR, and then time added on at the end for VAR stoppages. we’ll soon be having Premier League matches that take longer than the lumbering American Football “game”!
Maybe we should start dividing the game into quarters to save the poor players becoming overtired!

Don't even joke about it Bruegel  - let's just dump VAR ! 

How ever did we arrive at a situation where the supporters don't know if a goal has been scored or not ? This is ruining our national game. 

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It was in the news yesterday that the ' powers that be ' are looking at the offside rule with a view to changing it,so that there has to be clear daylight between players,which will take away the need for VAR for offside,which will surely make everyone happy.

For the best example of correct use of VAR you only have to go back 18 months to the World Cup Finals where every incident the ref wasn't sure of the pitchside monitor was used,the difference in the Premier League is that it appears all the games are being reffed at Stockley Park with the ref on the pitch all to happy to pass the buck(Maybe that way they feel they can deflect any criticism that comes their way).

I read someone earlier mentioned a line running to the touchline from the end of the 18 yard box,probably the most sensible solution of the lot.

In my opinion VAR should only be used as a confirmation device therefore letting the referee on the pitch manage the game (like pre VAR) up until the point where he misses something ie :handball,a thrown punch/elbow/spit then a word in his ear could stop the game where he must consult the pitchside monitor to make his decision.

By making the movement of going to the side of the pitch it immediately includes the crowd who now realise something has happened which no-one saw,you still don't need to show the replays on the big screen (because of crowd influence) until he turns back to the pitch,then let the crowd see the incident but only from the angle of confirmation that the ref had,this way the crowd see the same thing as the referee and theoretically accept the decision.

Currently we are getting potentially 5+ VARs a match I believe if this was introduced that would be halved.

PS: Happy New Year everyone

' Up The Town ! '

 

 

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Couple of comments about VAR .

Taking the Pukki Norwich incident as an example . If he was more than a foot offside he was probably offside when the ball was kicked . However when he is deemed to be less than an inch offside when he received the ball  where was he in the split second from when the ball was kicked . Furthermore , when is it deemed that the ball is kicked ? is it when the  foot strikes the ball or when the ball is set in motion by the kick ? . In either case it's very , very fine margins .

Secondly , and I speak as a Wolves fan , equally it applies to any team in the top ten ( big 6 clubs , who ? ) . Again taking the Pukki disallowed goal as an example , if the goal had been given Norwich may well have won the game . As it was they drew with Spurs , so Spurs gained a point . As a result they overtook Wolves in the league , what I'm saying if it makes sense , is that   not only does a dubious VAR  decision affect the opposition it also has an effect on  the scramble for top 5 places or relegation . Yes I know that this has always been the case with officials decisions being correct or otherwise but we now have  a situation where the man in charge is no longer in charge and is overruled by a panel . Football is a human based game , players make mistakes and goals are scored , players make mistakes and goals are missed  . Officials make mistakes  but they are all on the pitch with all the atmosphere etc . not in a studio with banks of screens poring over  an incident several times to make a decision and hoping it's the correct one .

Thirdly ( here in Norfolk 3 is a couple ) Is it fair that VAR  is only used in FA Cup games  where the game is played at a Premier league ground  ?

Apologies  Older  I only used the Norwich , Spurs games as an example , I've nothing against Spurs  having watched them in the Gilzean , Jennings Chivers era ,. I could equally used the Liverpool , Wolves games as example but it was too painful !!!!!!!!!!!! 

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20 minutes ago, fenman said:

Couple of comments about VAR .

Taking the Pukki Norwich incident as an example . If he was more than a foot offside he was probably offside when the ball was kicked . However when he is deemed to be less than an inch offside when he received the ball  where was he in the split second from when the ball was kicked . Furthermore , when is it deemed that the ball is kicked ? is it when the  foot strikes the ball or when the ball is set in motion by the kick ? . In either case it's very , very fine margins .

When the ball is touched.

 

http://theifab.com/laws/chapter/31/section/87/

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We could, of course, all just refuse to attend/watch Premiership games until they reform or retreat, The Sky/B.T./Amazon advertisers and League accountants would soon get/send the message. (I use the term “we” with a degree of looseness. I have only once ever attended a Prem game and rarely have sufficient interest to watch one on T.V.!)

Or maybe this thread is redundant as they’ve already noticed, and in only half a season, speed of light in footballing terms!

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VAR is crap especially for highlighting the right margins in offside (what happened to being level?). However what it is is that it is consistent with those calls. 
 

With regards to the fa cup games and used of it at only premier league grounds. It is used as it only effects those two teams that are playing

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On 01/01/2020 at 18:28, SON OF LINEKER said:

It was in the news yesterday that the ' powers that be ' are looking at the offside rule with a view to changing it,so that there has to be clear daylight between players,which will take away the need for VAR for offside,which will surely make everyone happy.

For the best example of correct use of VAR you only have to go back 18 months to the World Cup Finals where every incident the ref wasn't sure of the pitchside monitor was used,the difference in the Premier League is that it appears all the games are being reffed at Stockley Park with the ref on the pitch all to happy to pass the buck(Maybe that way they feel they can deflect any criticism that comes their way).

I read someone earlier mentioned a line running to the touchline from the end of the 18 yard box,probably the most sensible solution of the lot.

In my opinion VAR should only be used as a confirmation device therefore letting the referee on the pitch manage the game (like pre VAR) up until the point where he misses something ie :handball,a thrown punch/elbow/spit then a word in his ear could stop the game where he must consult the pitchside monitor to make his decision.

By making the movement of going to the side of the pitch it immediately includes the crowd who now realise something has happened which no-one saw,you still don't need to show the replays on the big screen (because of crowd influence) until he turns back to the pitch,then let the crowd see the incident but only from the angle of confirmation that the ref had,this way the crowd see the same thing as the referee and theoretically accept the decision.

Currently we are getting potentially 5+ VARs a match I believe if this was introduced that would be halved.

PS: Happy New Year everyone

' Up The Town ! '

 

 

That's what it once was, there had to be clear daylight between players. Let's get back to that for goodness sake. Alter the offside rule to reflect this, keep goal line tech and scrap VAR. 

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No excuse for posting today as it's a bright sunny day here on Norfolk Broads .

I'm a Daily Mail reader , I don't know why as they are anti motor sport for one thing and they are gradually slipping toward the low standard of the red tops . Pages of nonsense about celebrities etc. Sadly I've got very little options or choices to I have grin and bear it .

However my post is about an article by Martin Samuel the chief sports writer in the paper today . He makes an interesting point about , not so much VAR but the Marx Brothers inspired handball rule . I've thought this myself but have never heard anyone else  mention it .

If a defender accidently touches the ball with his hand in his penalty area , then clears it up field to another player who then plays it into the  opposition  penalty area and a goal is scored ,VAR  would rule out the goal because of the handball in the lead up . BUT under the present rule it wouldn't be a penalty .  Very strange thinking behind that rule !!!!!!!!!!!!

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2 hours ago, fenman said:

No excuse for posting today as it's a bright sunny day here on Norfolk Broads .

I'm a Daily Mail reader , I don't know why as they are anti motor sport for one thing and they are gradually slipping toward the low standard of the red tops . Pages of nonsense about celebrities etc. Sadly I've got very little options or choices to I have grin and bear it .

However my post is about an article by Martin Samuel the chief sports writer in the paper today . He makes an interesting point about , not so much VAR but the Marx Brothers inspired handball rule . I've thought this myself but have never heard anyone else  mention it .

If a defender accidently touches the ball with his hand in his penalty area , then clears it up field to another player who then plays it into the  opposition  penalty area and a goal is scored ,VAR  would rule out the goal because of the handball in the lead up . BUT under the present rule it wouldn't be a penalty .  Very strange thinking behind that rule !!!!!!!!!!!!

Plenty of rain here and heading your way...lol

VAR will be the death knell for football and turn it into a minority sport if they don't change it.

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Thanks Older , we've just got it .

If football turns to a minority sport perhaps the BBC and Daily Mail might report on motorcycle racing a bit more  . Wishful thinking

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VAR  rears its head again . Wolves v Leicester  Willy Boly's goal disallowed  because a players heel is a fraction offside when he's facing away from goal near the corner flag . Even the referee was uncertain what the situation was . Although I'm a Wolves fan I wouldn't be so childish to say it cost them the game because you can't say what would have happened afterwards if the goal had counted ( Leicester are a very good team and could have scored themselves ) . According to the referee in BT  studio even though you cannot be offside from a corner the fact that the players heel was offside when another player received the ball he was offside .Do we really want this type of forensic analysis in the game ? . . The rest of the EFL have said that they don't want VAR , if the FA decide that VAR  will continue in it's present form we will end up with a different set of rules for the Premiership than the rest of football . I understand that the rest of Europe have a different way of interpretation of VAR .

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25 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

I think everyone has the same interpretion about VAR...CRAP!

Not me Older, I support the principal of V.A.R., I’d just like to see the interpretation of the rules to be clearer and more consistent (taking away the irrelevances) and more importantly the screen to be pitch-side and the match Referee to be the sole arbiter. That way the system becomes a tool for the Referee rather than the embuggerance that it is now!

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45 minutes ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

Not me Older, I support the principal of V.A.R., I’d just like to see the interpretation of the rules to be clearer and more consistent (taking away the irrelevances) and more importantly the screen to be pitch-side and the match Referee to be the sole arbiter. That way the system becomes a tool for the Referee rather than the embuggerance that it is now!

I've never seen any ref being embuggered during a match yet! My gawd just the thought is bad enough‼️

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7 minutes ago, hoppit said:

What's an embuggerence please my missus is asking and I don't know what to tell her.

 

Originally it’s military slang for anything that gets in the way of progress, however it is most notably used by the great fantasy writer Terry Pratchett to describe his battle with Alzheimer’s disease.

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Yes the kick out should have been red carded. I keep saying the same thing - keep the goal line tech, keep the on pitch officials but get rid of VAR.

Also, I would like to see more players booked for dissent. The amount of time players surround the referee and he has to suffer 'in the face' outrage, amounts to blatant intimidation and at times must come close to assault by threatening behaviour. Officials should not have to tolerate this sort of attack. 

Lets face it, if players are booked more frequently for dissent - another yellow for a foul will result in red cards. So, booking for dissent more frequently could well result in less intimidation of officials and therefore a more peaceable game. Hopefully. 

Edited by Keith B
addition

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3 hours ago, Keith B said:

Yes the kick out should have been red carded. I keep saying the same thing - keep the goal line tech, keep the on pitch officials but get rid of VAR.

Also, I would like to see more players booked for dissent. The amount of time players surround the referee and he has to suffer 'in the face' outrage, amounts to blatant intimidation and at times must come close to assault by threatening behaviour. Officials should not have to tolerate this sort of attack. 

Lets face it, if players are booked more frequently for dissent - another yellow for a foul will result in red cards. So, booking for dissent more frequently could well result in less intimidation of officials and therefore a more peaceable game. Hopefully. 

I didn't see the incident in real time as I was out. However, having watched the replay, I can't understand how it wasn't given as a red card. Did the incident get reviewed to VAR? Like I've said previously, we need VAR. That is fact. It already needs a revamp though and really does need to be polished up. Whether people like it or not, our referees aren't good enough to get the tough decisions right every time. And the saying 'everyone makes mistakes' isn't good enough anymore. There is far too much at stake in the modern day.

I agree when you say players should be booked for dissent. I think most, if not all, would also agree. However, I can't see the Premier League, FA or PGMOL (whoever is responsible) putting that in place. Quite simply because they don't have the balls to do it. I'd quite happily be proved wrong on that though.

 

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48 minutes ago, Jacob Englefield said:

I didn't see the incident in real time as I was out. However, having watched the replay, I can't understand how it wasn't given as a red card. Did the incident get reviewed to VAR? Like I've said previously, we need VAR. That is fact. It already needs a revamp though and really does need to be polished up. Whether people like it or not, our referees aren't good enough to get the tough decisions right every time. And the saying 'everyone makes mistakes' isn't good enough anymore. There is far too much at stake in the modern day.

I agree when you say players should be booked for dissent. I think most, if not all, would also agree. However, I can't see the Premier League, FA or PGMOL (whoever is responsible) putting that in place. Quite simply because they don't have the balls to do it. I'd quite happily be proved wrong on that though.

 

The commentator and the pundits gave the impression that it had been referred to VAR - so we have to assume that it was. Still don't like it Jacob. How did we arrive at a situation where the spectators don't know if it's a goal or not ? Spoils enjoyment of the game. That instant joy when your team has scored has been removed and that for me ruins watching a match.  

The only thing at stake is somebodies money Jacob. We shouldn't keep knocking our match officials, for me they do a very difficult job, very well. 

Edited by Keith B
addition

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The Maguire incident was reviewed. Details were displayed on the screens. All we saw from the 3 most controversial reviews was a very quick flash of the Giroud offside with the lines drawn, was there for maybe a second. “It’s not football anymore” will become a very popular chant if this farce isn’t binned.

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4 hours ago, Keith B said:

The commentator and the pundits gave the impression that it had been referred to VAR - so we have to assume that it was. Still don't like it Jacob. How did we arrive at a situation where the spectators don't know if it's a goal or not ? Spoils enjoyment of the game. That instant joy when your team has scored has been removed and that for me ruins watching a match.  

The only thing at stake is somebodies money Jacob. We shouldn't keep knocking our match officials, for me they do a very difficult job, very well. 

Absolutely terrible decision if it had been sent for review. Harry Maguire knew exactly what he was doing when aiming the kick out at the Chelsea player. He's very lucky there. And like I've also said before, I'm a United fan. The current way VAR is being implemented is absolutely awful and taking the enjoyment out of a game. We, the fans, are paying the price for the Premier Leagues and PGMOL's arrogance. It's wrong.

And that's my point. There is far too much money at stake for decisions to be more often than not wrong, than right. I don't like knocking match officials where possible Keith. But the fact is, because of the way the game is going (for example, the speed of play), it is very difficult for them to get every decision right. Hence the need for some assistance in the form of technology and other forms of help. There's also no getting away from the fact there are some poor officials out there. Technology or no technology.

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Poor officials yes. Particularly those in front of the VAR monitor!
As I’ve said before keep VAR, change the criteria, and give the screen to the match referee, either via a smart phone or a monitor at the pitch side (for the more optically challenged refs!).

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2 minutes ago, Jacob Englefield said:

Absolutely terrible decision if it had been sent for review. Harry Maguire knew exactly what he was doing when aiming the kick out at the Chelsea player. He's very lucky there. And like I've also said before, I'm a United fan. The current way VAR is being implemented is absolutely awful and taking the enjoyment out of a game. We, the fans, are paying the price for the Premier Leagues and PGMOL's arrogance. It's wrong.

And that's my point. There is far too much money at stake for decisions to be more often than not wrong, than right. I don't like knocking match officials where possible Keith. But the fact is, because of the way the game is going (for example, the speed of play), it is very difficult for them to get every decision right. Hence the need for some assistance in the form of technology and other forms of help. There's also no getting away from the fact there are some poor officials out there. Technology or no technology.

I think it's fair to say that referees do vary, what some will blow up for another doesn't. But we must remember that the officials have to have that 'discretionary power' because conditions and situations vary too. 'Poor officials' is a bit strong for me. It is a very difficult job and a referee has to have eyes in the back of his head (some refs might say 'if only') as well as keeping up with the game. You and I don't make the decisions Jacob - so, we will see what is decided in due course.  

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8 minutes ago, Keith B said:

I think it's fair to say that referees do vary, what some will blow up for another doesn't. But we must remember that the officials have to have that 'discretionary power' because conditions and situations vary too. 'Poor officials' is a bit strong for me. It is a very difficult job and a referee has to have eyes in the back of his head (some refs might say 'if only') as well as keeping up with the game. You and I don't make the decisions Jacob - so, we will see what is decided in due course.  

We'll agree to disagree on the standard of officiating! 😉 Like I said, it is in some cases, not all. What I'm hoping for is that the officials get the help they need. That's meant in the nicest possible way. Because they, in particular the referees, are being made to look worse with the way VAR is being implemented.

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He didn’t get sent off for one reason and that’s because he plays for England. 
 

The top English players have always got away with more, Rooney, Gerrard, Neville, Ferdinand. 
 

The referees are not fit for purpose. How on earth Stuart Atwell is refereeing let alone at premier league level is beyond me. He’s the worst of the lot, and when you include, Taylor, Moss, Paulson, Atkinson in that list then that is some accolade. 
 

The referee last night was Anthony Taylor from Greater Manchester, I believe it was Chris Kavanagh as var, guess where he’s from??

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13 hours ago, St Darren said:

Shall we discuss VAR and referees again after the incidents today??? In particular the challenge in the Chelsea v Spurs game 

Mmm - plus I wonder what Bournemouth's boss Eddie Howe thinks of VAR after yesterdays match at Burnley. Had two good goals disallowed and an appeal for a penalty turned down AND whilst this was being determined, Burnley were awarded a penalty at the other end !! 

In Man U's midweek match during a VAR determination, even the commentator said 'VAR is ruining the enjoyment of watching football isn't it' and, his co commentator agreed. 

If this farce of VAR continues much longer, crowds will begin to dwindle. That spontaneous burst of joy when your team scores has gone once it's realised the goal has been referred to VAR. Awful decision to introduce VAR.

In my opinion VAR should be dropped, goal line tech kept and - let the on pitch officials get on with their job. Let's get back to enjoying our national game. 

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26 minutes ago, Keith B said:

Mmm - plus I wonder what Bournemouth's boss Eddie Howe thinks of VAR after yesterdays match at Burnley. Had two good goals disallowed and an appeal for a penalty turned down AND whilst this was being determined, Burnley were awarded a penalty at the other end !! 

In Man U's midweek match during a VAR determination, even the commentator said 'VAR is ruining the enjoyment of watching football isn't it' and, his co commentator agreed. 

If this farce of VAR continues much longer, crowds will begin to dwindle. That spontaneous burst of joy when your team scores has gone once it's realised the goal has been referred to VAR. Awful decision to introduce VAR.

In my opinion VAR should be dropped, goal line tech kept and - let the on pitch officials get on with their job. Let's get back to enjoying our national game. 

It’s the people looking at VAR in this instance which is incompetent referees. That Coote fella got 2 decisions wrong yesterday and has mugged off the referee on the pitch. The Spurs later should have walked and Leicester should have had a penalty. But for some reason he didn’t give them. 
 

For years people said a refs decision is based on one view, well now VAR gives them the extra views and sometimes they still get it wrong. 
 

Mike Riley and his PGMOL or whatever it’s called need binning off

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