V A R

[Keith B]

Well, after seeing this tech used in the Women's World Cup, and the controversy around it - what do people think about V A R now ?

[Dave Bartlam]

It's the people using it mate that's the issue. There weren't much controversy at the men's world cup. There needs to be alot more training.

Did you hear about the ref in the Brazil Uruguay game who was told to use it twice and ignored it? Not sure what's happening with him but sounds like he was taking a stand 👀

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

VAR...the end of football as we know it.

Should be left to the referee's decisions taken in real time. 

2 hours plus games looming...rubbish for me.

[Keith B]

7 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

VAR...the end of football as we know it.

Should be left to the referee's decisions taken in real time. 

2 hours plus games looming...rubbish for me.

It seems also that the referee has the final decision whether she/he uses VAR or not ? And - as for the time taken waiting, perhaps to take a penalty or not, does nothing for the players waiting, or the supporters either. I agree older, 99.9 % of the time referees get it spot on. That said, the standard of the officials in this world cup I think, is not good. The amount of fouls that are missed (or overlooked ?) and the ball going out of play and there is no flag. FIFA really should get their act together. In my opinion.

The standard of referees in our country, in all the leagues top to bottom, is excellent in my opinion. They do a difficult job very well indeed.

[Darin Morse]

My opinion hasn't changed - get rid of it altogether! 

[St Darren]

It’s more about the laws rather than VAR. 

[Keith B]

9 hours ago, St Darren said:

It’s more about the laws rather than VAR. 

Interesting comment Daren. Would you like to expand on that ?

[Way Of The Park]

It's a no from me, get rid of VAR.

Sort of thing that works pretty well in cricket and both rugby codes where there are natural breaks in the action, but not in football.  

And, as for the "referees mistakes can cost a club millions" rubbish, then premier league clubs should stop wasting it (for example, read that Man United have only stopped paying David Moyes a salary in the past month).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[baldy]

I think we will be talking more about the referees than the players for the first part of the season. There will still be disagreements. My biggest fear is the time it will take. Won’t be able to cheer a goal at the time, will have to wait for VAR.

[St Darren]

On 06/07/2019 at 07:08, Keith B said:

Interesting comment Daren. Would you like to expand on that ?

VAR isn’t wrong. 

The handball law is crazy although they are ironing it out by saying every ball that hits the hand/arm is a penalty when in the penalty area. 

The offside law. Having a toe offside is not gaining an advantage but according to the offside law it is now. 

VAR was meant to be for ‘clear and obvious’ errors. That’s my only issue with it. 

[Keith B]

8 hours ago, St Darren said:

VAR isn’t wrong. 

The handball law is crazy although they are ironing it out by saying every ball that hits the hand/arm is a penalty when in the penalty area. 

The offside law. Having a toe offside is not gaining an advantage but according to the offside law it is now. 

VAR was meant to be for ‘clear and obvious’ errors. That’s my only issue with it. 

Thanks Daren. Agree - but we all know that there are certainly times when ''ball to hand' is something that happens and, there is no intent to handle and there is no advantage gained. How can it be fair under those circumstances to award a penalty. Frankly, seeing defenders running, often backwards, with their hands behind their backs is bizarre and can often effect a player's balance and, in my opinion, is too much interference in the game by the lawmakers.

[bighairydave]

On 07/07/2019 at 22:07, St Darren said:

VAR isn’t wrong. 

The handball law is crazy although they are ironing it out by saying every ball that hits the hand/arm is a penalty when in the penalty area. 

The offside law. Having a toe offside is not gaining an advantage but according to the offside law it is now. 

VAR was meant to be for ‘clear and obvious’ errors. That’s my only issue with it. 

Not true regarding a penalty if hits hand in area.

More so the other way round, if the ball hits an attacker’s hand, who then goes on to score/create a goal scoring opportunity will be penalised with handball.

[St Darren]

7 minutes ago, bighairydave said:

Not true regarding a penalty if hits hand in area.

More so the other way round, if the ball hits an attacker’s hand, who then goes on to score/create a goal scoring opportunity will be penalised with handball.

I understood that if the ball hits your arm in the penalty area from next season it is a penalty. 

I see Riley has come out and said that they will not let VAR over take the referees in the premier league 

[isaac rosenberg]

The rule affecting goalkeeper movements at penalties is interesting because according to the letter of the law, it renders any shot directed firmly towards the cornet of the net impossible to save unless the keeper is nine feet tall. Most of us in tin-mining country find it convenient to be shorter than that.

[Keith B]

7 hours ago, isaac rosenberg said:

The rule affecting goalkeeper movements at penalties is interesting because according to the letter of the law, it renders any shot directed firmly towards the cornet of the net impossible to save unless the keeper is nine feet tall. Most of us in tin-mining country find it convenient to be shorter than that.

As said above - too much interference in the game by the law makers. Sad but interesting, last evening on the late news it was announced that VAR would be fully operational in the Premier League starting this coming season. Oh dear, one suspects there will be chaos at times, if not all the time. I'm surprised that the Premier League haven't made objections to the FA.

[fenman]

I am one of the unfortunate old men who regard the 1960's as the best era to have lived through and that since then we've gone downhill . The music was better than today ( can rap be regarded as music ? ) people had a wider vocabulary than " wow , amazing , awesome  and I was like  " and football was an exciting simple game .

Even so I have to grudgingly accept that a little bit of technology would improve the professional game . In spite of that I think that coupled with this farcical new handball rule its gone too far . I think over the coming season  we will have never ending debates over VAR  decisions particularly offside . Giving an offside because a players hand is offside  will cause more controversy  than if the lines official missed  a marginal one .

One other thing about VAR  , and I accept that this is a  pathetic comment to make  . If it is used in the lower leagues and there are several instances during a game where it is used the game will be extended by several minutes . Now taking  my trip to Plymouth home games  as an example  , or even Ipswich home games I have a similar scenario , at the end of the game I have 20 minutes to sprint down the hill , the hill the equivalent of Kilimanjaro going to the game , to the station and catch the train . Now if there are 8 , for example , reviews each taking 1 and a half minutes  that's 12 minutes extra  time plus the normal added time . Result , myself and several hundred people have to sit at Plymouth station for over an hour for the next train , which will crowded  at that time anyway . A minor point against VAR  I agree but  multiply this all over the country  and there will be several thousand fed up fans .    

Finally I agree with Sean Dyche , its all very well bringing in new technology  but when are the governing bodies going to act on the simple things that are ruining the game dissent , play acting an injury and other forms of cheating .We don't need technology for that , just a bit of courage . Also while I think of it will VAR sort out shirt pulling and holding in corners and free kicks . If it does I'll miss the next train to St. Austell as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Keith B]

10 hours ago, fenman said:

I am one of the unfortunate old men who regard the 1960's as the best era to have lived through and that since then we've gone downhill . The music was better than today ( can rap be regarded as music ? ) people had a wider vocabulary than " wow , amazing , awesome  and I was like  " and football was an exciting simple game .

Even so I have to grudgingly accept that a little bit of technology would improve the professional game . In spite of that I think that coupled with this farcical new handball rule its gone too far . I think over the coming season  we will have never ending debates over VAR  decisions particularly offside . Giving an offside because a players hand is offside  will cause more controversy  than if the lines official missed  a marginal one .

One other thing about VAR  , and I accept that this is a  pathetic comment to make  . If it is used in the lower leagues and there are several instances during a game where it is used the game will be extended by several minutes . Now taking  my trip to Plymouth home games  as an example  , or even Ipswich home games I have a similar scenario , at the end of the game I have 20 minutes to sprint down the hill , the hill the equivalent of Kilimanjaro going to the game , to the station and catch the train . Now if there are 8 , for example , reviews each taking 1 and a half minutes  that's 12 minutes extra  time plus the normal added time . Result , myself and several hundred people have to sit at Plymouth station for over an hour for the next train , which will crowded  at that time anyway . A minor point against VAR  I agree but  multiply this all over the country  and there will be several thousand fed up fans .    

Finally I agree with Sean Dyche , its all very well bringing in new technology  but when are the governing bodies going to act on the simple things that are ruining the game dissent , play acting an injury and other forms of cheating .We don't need technology for that , just a bit of courage . Also while I think of it will VAR sort out shirt pulling and holding in corners and free kicks . If it does I'll miss the next train to St. Austell as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Well I fully agree with your last para FENMAN. You lost me a few times with the other three.

PS - I'm one of the old timers too - was an officer with the P&O Line in the 60's. Thought it was just great earning a living doing world cruises.

[fenman]

Sorry I lost you Keith B . the point I was trying to make was that the use of VAR  could have a wider impact than just making correct decisions . If it is used a lot in a game the game could go on for much longer than the 90-ish minutes . People using public transport could end up missing trains and connections etc . Train and bus timetables don't run to suit football fan's . Only a small point to make against its use .

[Dave Deacon]

Takes me back to when as young teenagers we had to leave Home Park five/ten minutes and run down through Central Park to still stand a chance of catching the last train of the day back into Cornwall!

[Keith B]

9 hours ago, fenman said:

Sorry I lost you Keith B . the point I was trying to make was that the use of VAR  could have a wider impact than just making correct decisions . If it is used a lot in a game the game could go on for much longer than the 90-ish minutes . People using public transport could end up missing trains and connections etc . Train and bus timetables don't run to suit football fan's . Only a small point to make against its use .

Ah thank you sir, understood now. A small but valid point. Years ago, Southern Railway used to put on special trains for football fans. You still had to get out of the ground smartish though to catch the train. I'm talking about fans of Portsmouth, Southampton and Bournemouth. Not so much traffic on the roads in those days though.

[fenman]

Yes I remember the football specials .I remember Kings Lynn town playing in the FA cup in the 60's , I can't recall where but it might have been Everton , a special train was laid on . Sadly the rail people don't seem to take into account the extra passengers for match days . There was a fiasco last week when Norwich City played Newcastle at home , the trains from  south Norfolk and North Suffolk were full at their starting point so fans from the stations down the line had to find alternative transport . Even the GWR  don't seem to allow for extra passengers for a Plymouth home game . Every time I've gone from St. Austell the 2 carriage train is packed . As I type this another goal has been disallowed after a VAR  referral .

[St Darren]

It’s rubbish and not for for purpose in its current format 

[Rayvon]

How long you had a stammer Darren? but I do agree with you. The only problem I had with the old system was it was always the big clubs that got away with the big decisions and the smaller clubs didn't. Referees seemed to bottle it in front of a large crowd.

[hoppit]

Just saw A Chelsea goal disallowed because a blokes foot was in an offside position a third of the way back the field, anyone that thinks that's right must really hate football, I just can't watch anymore, what has technology got to do with football in my day it was all about the referees opinion and loads of mistakes from all parties involved.What an absolute farce total ruination of a wonderful sport.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Offside because your arm is forward!

Yer having a laugh, will ruin football even more than the cheating diving girlies that play today.

[St Darren]

Offside is offside. I’m fine with that. No matter how minimal. It’s the law that’s the problem with it. 

But the farcical decisions on not overturning penalty decisions is absolutely awful. It’s the referees looking after each other.

The VAR box in Heathrow doesn’t need to be manned by a ref. It should be manned by an independent person as it should be obvious and not down to interpretation. 

It basically boils down to the fact that referees are now so bad that they need this help. 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

13 hours ago, St Darren said:

Offside is offside. I’m fine with that. No matter how minimal. It’s the law that’s the problem with it. 

But the farcical decisions on not overturning penalty decisions is absolutely awful. It’s the referees looking after each other.

The VAR box in Heathrow doesn’t need to be manned by a ref. It should be manned by an independent person as it should be obvious and not down to interpretation. 

It basically boils down to the fact that referees are now so bad that they need this help. 

Should be left to the referee's,  they all do a pretty good job in my opinion,  so let them get on with it. 

You cannot sanitize football or you lose the spontaneity of it...then you have problems. 

[Keith B]

2 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Should be left to the referee's,  they all do a pretty good job in my opinion,  so let them get on with it. 

You cannot sanitize football or you lose the spontaneity of it...then you have problems. 

Agreed. Things that they should get tough over, they don't. F ... n and cursing at refs should be a straight red in my opinion. They book a player for taking his shirt off when he scores a goal (agree actually - totally needless) but do nothing when the players spit out foul language at the ref because they don't agree with his decision.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

2 hours ago, Keith B said:

Agreed. Things that they should get tough over, they don't. F ... n and cursing at refs should be a straight red in my opinion. They book a player for taking his shirt off when he scores a goal (agree actually - totally needless) but do nothing when the players spit out foul language at the ref because they don't agree with his decision.

Taking your shirt off is all about look at me, you get it in local football as well.

Marvellous things steroids, I'm always laughing my socks off when they do it 😂

[Keith B]

21 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Taking your shirt off is all about look at me, you get it in local football as well.

Marvellous things steroids, I'm always laughing my socks off when they do it 😂

Probably wish they looked like Ronaldo - probably wish they had his female following too. Wonder if the women want Ronaldo - or his money !? Hey we're getting away from VAR.

[Phil]

Watching the rugby world cup, and between the 3 on the field officials and the TMO official they always seem to get the decisions spot on. And also you get to hear what they are checking for and the view of those officials. Why has VAR been so bad when they had this template already in place. 

In it's current form I see it as a total waste of time. 

[St Darren]

22 minutes ago, Ron Manager said:

Watching the rugby world cup, and between the 3 on the field officials and the TMO official they always seem to get the decisions spot on. And also you get to hear what they are checking for and the view of those officials. Why has VAR been so bad when they had this template already in place. 

In it's current form I see it as a total waste of time. 

I think in Rugby things are more black and white. VAR should only be used in football for black and white decisions such as offside and if ball is over the line. The rest is interpretation. 
 

The referees are poor and the people who do the VAR are the same referees so they’re never going to go against ‘their mate’ in the middle. 

[fenman]

I think this is a subject that will rage on all season . Personally I don't like it . There are some positive aspects to it obviously but I feel that some aspects spoil the game , my particular dislike is goals disallowed because a players hand or part of his leg are offside . You could argue that his foot or hand is in an offside position even if he , or she , is facing away from the goal . From a common sense point of view are they gaining an advantage  ? . If they aren't why shouldn't the goal count ? . Is all this accuracy really necessary  in a simple game . If it is then how far will technology in the future go ? More importantly what is the point , other than commercial purposes , for VAR  being only used at the top level of football ? Effectively you will have 2 separate sets of rules , one for the top level one for the lower levels .

I also find it amusing that for the past 100 or so years , more so since the television saturation of the professional game , people have argued and fell out over whether it was a deliberate foul or an offside goal . Technology was called for , we now have the same people falling out over the way the decision was interpreted by the VAR  experts and / or the  referee  .

[Paul]

Get rid of it. Absolute nonsense. 

[fenman]

More fiascos at the weekend , Doherty's shirt almost pulled off in the penalty area at Newcastle missed by both the referee and VAR  , dodgy penalties at Norwich plus goalie moving before  penalty kick taken . Crystal Palace game  etc. etc.  I don't seriously think that the FA will drop VAR in fact I think that they will bring in more complex cameras and take more excitement out of the game . One question that baffles me , when an offside is given because a players hand , arm or foot is a fraction offside when he receives the ball how   does the system relate to when the ball is kicked , in fact how do the human officials do it ? To explain what I mean , Van Dyke has the ball deep in the Liverpool half , he plays a long ball forward , Salah senses that he will do this and starts his run the moment the ball is kicked , when he receives the ball he's 2 inches ( I refuse to go metric ) in an offside position  . Invariably off side will be given  although he wasn't offside when the ball was played . Is it best left to the referee and his or her assistants to decide in this situation ? or will we end up having video cameras covering all parts of the pitch leading to longer delays pending a decision .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

50mm...lol

[ECPL]

JUST LIKE AMERICAN FOOTBALL Thank goodness we don't have VAR at local level.  Leave it to the officials if they get it wrong they get it wrong.  This has happened for years. My argument with offside is not when the ball arrives it is when the ball is played.  I defy anyone to say exactly when a ball has been played in fact it is impossible.  So why not let the attacker have the benefit of the doubt.  To much time is spent on angles and lines telling a person he/she is 2 mm offside but no one checks when a ball is kicked.  A ball can travel a few inches in a micro second yet a player can be called offside by 2mm.  Come on you do the maths.  The attacker must be given the benefit of the doubt when it is such a tiny distance in an even tinier period of time.  The other major problem is I can understand a referee making the wrong decision from the angle he is when it comes to a foul or shirt pulling etc, I have done it myself but why leave it to VAR.  I am sure they are not qualified officials because if they were they would not make such ridiculous decisions.  If they feel there is a problem then they must NOT EVER be given the authority to make the decision.  That decision must be taken by the match referee.  So why is the referee not allowed to check for himself by the pitch side video.  VAR must never be awarded one way or the other by people sat at a video screen.   They should be there to advise and then put it back to the referee to check.          

[bighairydave]

On 30/10/2019 at 10:19, fenman said:

More fiascos at the weekend , Doherty's shirt almost pulled off in the penalty area at Newcastle missed by both the referee and VAR  , dodgy penalties at Norwich plus goalie moving before  penalty kick taken . Crystal Palace game  etc. etc.  I don't seriously think that the FA will drop VAR in fact I think that they will bring in more complex cameras and take more excitement out of the game . One question that baffles me , when an offside is given because a players hand , arm or foot is a fraction offside when he receives the ball how   does the system relate to when the ball is kicked , in fact how do the human officials do it ? To explain what I mean , Van Dyke has the ball deep in the Liverpool half , he plays a long ball forward , Salah senses that he will do this and starts his run the moment the ball is kicked , when he receives the ball he's 2 inches ( I refuse to go metric ) in an offside position  . Invariably off side will be given  although he wasn't offside when the ball was played . Is it best left to the referee and his or her assistants to decide in this situation ? or will we end up having video cameras covering all parts of the pitch leading to longer delays pending a decision .

VAR won’t give an offside if he is in onside position when ball is played. They can put two camera angles going at the same time on the screen.

[Bruegel the Elder]

On 30/10/2019 at 20:33, ECPL said:

I am sure they are not qualified officials because if they were they would not make such ridiculous decisions.  If they feel there is a problem then they must NOT EVER be given the authority to make the decision.  That decision must be taken by the match referee.  So why is the referee not allowed to check for himself by the pitch side video.  VAR must never be awarded one way or the other by people sat at a video screen.   They should be there to advise and then put it back to the referee to check.          

I may be very wrong (everyone knows that wouldn’t be at all unusual), but I thought that VAR officials were to be recruited from the legion of retiring professional whose legs/stamina have let them down, but whose footballing brain is still intact.

[ECPL]

You could be right.  You left out EYESIGHT.  Perhaps that is the problem.  The other thing is that if something has been spotted by the VAR officials why does the referee not go immediately to the pitch side video screen so that he/she can discuss at the time what is seen.  But in all cases it must be down to the match referee to decide.  This would save an awful lot of time and conjecture.  I repeat IT MUST BE THE REFEREES DECISION.    

[Way Of The Park]

There is, however, one bizarre law which has brought together the two debating sides in unison. According to the rules accompanying the technology, any player who chooses to enter the VAR room where the team of officials is sat will be given a red card. On paper, it seems like a normal rule. However, take into consideration that the closest Stadium to the room in question is actually 13 miles (21 kilometres) away!

The VAR room is located in Stockley Park, London, with Watford’s Vicarage Road the closest Premier League ground to it. Nevertheless, if any given player across the league decides to jog on to London in order to confront the officials, he will be given a red card. Would be great though to see a crowd of players gather in the reception to berate the officials (in the same way that they gather around referees on the pitch), given the amount of time it seemingly takes to make some of the rulings, the 13 miles from Vicarage Road to Stockley Park could be doable.

[ECPL]

Blimey, you learn something new every day.   

[St Darren]

Wait till you see the Villa v Liverpool game just to see how flawed it is 

[somersetspur]

Wait till you see the Everton v Spurs game.

Shambles.

Ruining the game.

[St Darren]

38 minutes ago, somersetspur said:

Wait till you see the Everton v Spurs game.

Shambles.

Ruining the game.

It was a joke. I don’t get why they need to see a replay that many times. 
 

in the hand ball one, it’s clearly hit his arm so surely they just go on what the law is. The penalty incident, he’s been clipped but did what Mane did and flipped his legs out but was still tripped. Why on earth they need to see it that many times I don’t know. 
 

And I hope Spurs appeal the red card as it’s never a red card no matter how horrific the afters was

[fenman]

I still haven't seen much evidence to convince me that it's any good . As I said earlier , instead of moaning about the referee and their officials making mistakes , we are now moaning about the officials and the VAR operators . The other comment is , if it is incorporated permanently , how far down the structure will it go ? will it be used at Bodmin or St. Austell ? Logic would say no but then you end up with different   interpretation  or policing of rules at different levels . Cloughie and Shankley said that football was a simple game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

It reminds me of the story when Rolls Royce took over the jet engine project from Sir Frank Whittle . Whittle said  "its quite a simple concept " Lord Hive of Rolls Royce said " don't worry we'll soon make it complicated ".

Edited November 11, 2019 by fenman
final line added

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Offside by a toe but two handballs in the box not even reviewed.

It's a joke

[Postman Pat]

Heard an interesting comment on the radio yesterday. In athletics a race is decided by the torso, why not for offside in football. 

[St Darren]

5 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Offside by a toe but two handballs in the box not even reviewed.

It's a joke

They were reviewed though!

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, St Darren said:

They were reviewed though!

Not called by the ref?