Dissent.

[Keith B]

What constitutes dissent for which a player can be booked these days - and if it still exists, why don't referees book players for it ? Watching football on the TV this weekend, the latest being the Southampton v Spurs match, the number of times a player raged at the referee were countless. Surely if a player runs up to the referee and mouths very clearly for all to see - ''you must be f- - -in jokin ref'', with a snarl on his face and gesticulating with his hands and arms - that must be dissent ! ?

At times this outburst is ended by the player with a clear dismissive wave of his hand, indicating clearly that he has no respect for the ref at all. Does the offence still exist and if so, why is it not acted upon by the referee ?

 

[gingerninja]

It's completely down to the referee. The referee for the Chelsea v Norwich game sent Morata off for dissent after he reacted badly to being cautioned for 'diving'. Another referee on another day wouldn't have cautioned him. As mentioned above, most referee's are too weak, or feel to intimidated to do anything about it

[Keith B]

13 minutes ago, gingerninja said:

It's completely down to the referee. The referee for the Chelsea v Norwich game sent Morata off for dissent after he reacted badly to being cautioned for 'diving'. Another referee on another day wouldn't have cautioned him. As mentioned above, most referee's are too weak, or feel to intimidated to do anything about it

If the FA don't insist that referees book for dissent at the top level, how on earth can we expect to see dissent dealt with at our level of the game. If the FA won't back officials, we can hardly expect the Cornwall FA to grasp the nettle down here. Pathetic !

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Tough place to be - in the middle, you can please some of the people some of the time - you know the rest.

[Keith B]

9 hours ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Tough place to be - in the middle, you can please some of the people some of the time - you know the rest.

There's nothing pleasing in hearing/seeing players shouting abuse at officials older. The ref's job is hard enough without them having to put up with this kind of intimidation and insults from certain types of players. I say certain types because not all players are like that. The majority accept the refs decision and get on with the game. 

[Tommy Matthews]

The FA and officials could clear it up overnight if they wanted. If everyone saw the officials sending players off and you had two or three gone from a team in one game you can be sure that it wouldn't happen for long as managers would be without significant numbers of players for games. I'm guessing the FAPL wouldn't like it as it wouldn't look good round the world if players are being dismissed and teams were down to eight men. I thought that this year there were instructions sent out to clubs to ensure this was being addressed?

Two things would happen.

1. The abuse at top level would significantly reduce and therefore would filter down into grassroots and give local referees a chance.

2. The FA would cave in and say it's unworkable and the status quo would resume. 

The Respect Campaign is great to have as long as it works from top down and bottom up and we meet somewhere in the middle. 

As coaches we're supposed to set an example, we also tell our players to copy techniques and show skills like the pros. You can't ask them to copy a player without also seeing the other side as well. Monkey see, monkey do!

At school our rugby players accept decisions by referees, some of those same players when playing football think it's alright to show dissent towards the referee. That's not taught at school, that's learned behaviour from watching TV. I can tell you that PE staff don't allow it at all but clearly they're allowed a club level or it wouldn't happen.

[Keith B]

1 hour ago, Tommy Matthews said:

The FA and officials could clear it up overnight if they wanted. If everyone saw the officials sending players off and you had two or three gone from a team in one game you can be sure that it wouldn't happen for long as managers would be without significant numbers of players for games. I'm guessing the FAPL wouldn't like it as it wouldn't look good round the world if players are being dismissed and teams were down to eight men. I thought that this year there were instructions sent out to clubs to ensure this was being addressed?

Two things would happen.

1. The abuse at top level would significantly reduce and therefore would filter down into grassroots and give local referees a chance.

2. The FA would cave in and say it's unworkable and the status quo would resume. 

The Respect Campaign is great to have as long as it works from top down and bottom up and we meet somewhere in the middle. 

As coaches we're supposed to set an example, we also tell our players to copy techniques and show skills like the pros. You can't ask them to copy a player without also seeing the other side as well. Monkey see, monkey do!

At school our rugby players accept decisions by referees, some of those same players when playing football think it's alright to show dissent towards the referee. That's not taught at school, that's learned behaviour from watching TV. I can tell you that PE staff don't allow it at all but clearly they're allowed a club level or it wouldn't happen.

Spot on sir. If only the FA would really grasp this nettle and enforce the regulations regarding player discipline - back their officials to the full and drive out aggressive behavior by players.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

7 hours ago, Keith B said:

There's nothing pleasing in hearing/seeing players shouting abuse at officials older. The ref's job is hard enough without them having to put up with this kind of intimidation and insults from certain types of players. I say certain types because not all players are like that. The majority accept the refs decision and get on with the game. 

No-one supports the referees more than I do buddy.

The modern player is full of self satisfaction, and loaded to the gunwales with opinions ....and is always right (!)

Ask them to referee a game and they would completely brick it.

4 hours ago, Keith B said:

 

 

[fenman]

I must be honest and say that the game I've followed , played and team managed  for 65 years now disgusts me . When SKY  effectively took over the professional game we were told it would be a whole new world .Well it certainly has done that . To my mind its destroyed British football  to such an extent that none of the home nations have decent team . Effectively the premiership and championship are foreign clubs playing in this country . The owners , managers and the majority of players are all foreigners with no real interest in the history of the game . Can you think of any other " sport " that condones cheating , where officials are routinely  abused and insulted by the players , where spectators delight in singing foul chants about officials and opposition players . How can the FA allow the wholesale cheating that goes on , the wrestling match during corners and free kick , the diving ( which the many pundits think is permissible because contact is nearly made or " he won a penalty or free kick ) , the deliberate foul to stop an attack ( again permissible according to the pundits in order to break up an attack ) and the constant examination of all the officials decisions . Modern football must be unique in all these respects . We've got managers who constantly criticise officials , if you listen to them you realise that they could never be an official themselves because they seem to miss any  offences committed by their own players .. Small wonder that there is a bit of concern within the FA that the 17 to 20 age group are not paying to watch the game , the concern being that in 10 to 15 years spectator numbers will drop dramatically . 

Spectators themselves are strange people , I watch Norwich City occasionally , as well as Wolves and Ipswich  and most of the supporters around me at any of these clubs  just sit and moan about the players , the officials and the manager . They never seem happy and I wonder why spend a large part of your income on a season ticket for something you don't enjoy . Everyone of them has a better team selection , everyone is a better official than the ones on the pitch . They've certainly got better eyesight , at a recent Norwich game I was sitting behind a goal in the extreme right of the stand , the ball was played down the left hand side of the pitch roughly in line with the other end penalty area , as one all the people around me are up on their feet screaming for a throw in because the ball ( they said ) had gone over the line  . The linesman then came in for abuse . What is it with football supporters ? how could they possibly tell that the ball had crossed a line 75 + yards away  and out of their view ?

End of my yearly forum contribution .

One question ...... is it best to buy tickets for Plymouth games online of is it easier to buy at the turnstile on the day ?

second question do the Plymouth fans moan ?

[Keith B]

You're spot on fenman - sorry I can't answer your two questions.

[fenman]

Thanks very  much I'll buy online .

I'm making my 400 mile trip down to God's other county  for a few days stay so I thought I'd see them play Blackburn , plus fish and chips from Treboney in Roche .Long way for fish and chips , but worth it .

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

7 hours ago, fenman said:

I must be honest and say that the game I've followed , played and team managed  for 65 years now disgusts me . When SKY  effectively took over the professional game we were told it would be a whole new world .Well it certainly has done that . To my mind its destroyed British football  to such an extent that none of the home nations have decent team . Effectively the premiership and championship are foreign clubs playing in this country . The owners , managers and the majority of players are all foreigners with no real interest in the history of the game . Can you think of any other " sport " that condones cheating , where officials are routinely  abused and insulted by the players , where spectators delight in singing foul chants about officials and opposition players . How can the FA allow the wholesale cheating that goes on , the wrestling match during corners and free kick , the diving ( which the many pundits think is permissible because contact is nearly made or " he won a penalty or free kick ) , the deliberate foul to stop an attack ( again permissible according to the pundits in order to break up an attack ) and the constant examination of all the officials decisions . Modern football must be unique in all these respects . We've got managers who constantly criticise officials , if you listen to them you realise that they could never be an official themselves because they seem to miss any  offences committed by their own players .. Small wonder that there is a bit of concern within the FA that the 17 to 20 age group are not paying to watch the game , the concern being that in 10 to 15 years spectator numbers will drop dramatically . 

Spectators themselves are strange people , I watch Norwich City occasionally , as well as Wolves and Ipswich  and most of the supporters around me at any of these clubs  just sit and moan about the players , the officials and the manager . They never seem happy and I wonder why spend a large part of your income on a season ticket for something you don't enjoy . Everyone of them has a better team selection , everyone is a better official than the ones on the pitch . They've certainly got better eyesight , at a recent Norwich game I was sitting behind a goal in the extreme right of the stand , the ball was played down the left hand side of the pitch roughly in line with the other end penalty area , as one all the people around me are up on their feet screaming for a throw in because the ball ( they said ) had gone over the line  . The linesman then came in for abuse . What is it with football supporters ? how could they possibly tell that the ball had crossed a line 75 + yards away  and out of their view ?

End of my yearly forum contribution .

One question ...... is it best to buy tickets for Plymouth games online of is it easier to buy at the turnstile on the day ?

second question do the Plymouth fans moan ?

Easy to buy tickets at the gate - yes.

Do the supporters moan - is the pope a catholic (?)

[fenman]

In answer to your question Cornish I live east of Norwich , my daughter emigrated to Cornwall 12 years ago so I spend quite a few weeks of the year  in Mawgan Porth . As I'm used to the trip 400  miles doesn't seem so far .

Having re read my post it seems a bit hypocritical to say that the modern game disgusts me and then go on to say that I watch Norwich and Ipswich and travel 200 miles for some Wolves games plus watching Plymouth next week . Well the Norwich home games are free , courtesy of an engineering firm who have seat allocations and very few of their staff are interested in using the seats so my son has the option of using them . He's an Ipswich supporter so I repay him by paying for some Ipswich home games ( Ipswich is only 40 miles away . ) I've been a lifelong Wolves supporter  so I thought at long last I'll take in some of their home games  , plus of course they play Wolves this weekend .The Plymouth game is a birthday treat for my Cornish grandson .

At least with live games I can make my own mind up and form my own opinion without the battery of pundits helping me .

Sorry to digress from post subject , still the best football forum to browse , I must donate next season to help keep it going .

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by fenman
not completed before posted

[Dave Deacon]

Thanks for the compliments about the forum fenman. It’s amazing how many outside of the Duchy read it.

Feel free to donate whenever as the fund is still available for people to help it continue.

Interesting to hear from you that very few of the engineering staff are interested in using the Norwich seats. I wonder what they do instead on a Saturday afternoon! 

[fenman]

Speaking of people at the engineering firm not interested in free seat for a championship game Dave , I went to the Ipswich Wolves game on Saturday with my son and grandson . We got in our seats high up in the stand about 2.15 .2.50 arrived and there were 6 people a row or two in front of us . We are thinking " there's going to be a hell of a lot of movement in a few minutes " The players came out and the game started and we are still sitting in this huge area with  possibly 10  other people . There were huge areas of the ground totally empty  I think the gate was 17000 and about 2000 of those were away supporters . I asked a steward  if it was always like that and he said  the number of Wolves fans meant that it was a bigger gate than normal . Apparently the fans don't like Mick McArthey  so they stay away . Ipswich aren't a bad team , particularly as they haven't spent a lot of money on players in the past few seasons . They're mid table and play decent football and it's a modern stadium , what do the fans want ? At the end of the game the home end fans , who stood all game , booed their team off !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any way it's Plymouth on Saturday , perhaps the gate will be bigger .

[fenman]

Yes a good game   Rhino, I thought Blackburn lacked a few ideas with the ball into the box . Some balls seemed a bit hit and hope someone will get on the end . Good first goal from Plymouth though  .

Unfortunately it looks as if I've got  to make the pilgrimage ????   down to Cornwall again before the seasons end to see them again , possibly the Peterborough game because grandson enjoyed it so much . He's 15 and it was his first live game . Next time I must avoid the family enclosure , , some of the 5year olds are worse than the grown ups , leaping up and abusing the officials etc etc ..

In spite of the distance not a bad weekend with a good match , fish and chips from Roche and terrific breakfasts at Griggs in Sticker .

Plus I saw the grandchildren

[Keith B]

It seems that my original post regarding dissent shown by players on the field of play has been hijacked.

[fenman]

My apologies Keith , it's my fault I drifted off the subject .

[Keith B]

On 09/02/2018 at 10:19, fenman said:

My apologies Keith , it's my fault I drifted off the subject .

It can easily happen sir.

[fenman]

Just to take us back to the subject . I accept that is easy to be critical of organisations , particularly when we don't know the thinking behind ideas .However I cannot understand how anyone from the FA cannot see that dissent is ruining the game .Do any of the FA officials watch games , either live or televised ? . How can they not instruct officials to and clubs to clamp down on this problem ? . Some say it's acceptable because it's passion and heat of the moment , well so are some murders but the guilty party doesn't go unpunished .The problem is getting worse as is the other forms of cheating . Unfortunately the tv. pundits , or the majority of them , go along with it , particularly diving in the box . They say it's acceptable because " there was contact "  or would have been if he didn't go down ..Sadly what happens at the top filters down to the bottom and as a result the life of a referee at the lower levels will become unbearable in the future if there isn't a clamp down . I know you have a severe shortage of referees in your area , what will happen if future would be referees are put off by the amount of abuse from players and management .Also , less likely I know , how long before local councils are forced to close grounds following complaints from nearby residents ?

[Keith B]

4 hours ago, fenman said:

Just to take us back to the subject . I accept that is easy to be critical of organisations , particularly when we don't know the thinking behind ideas .However I cannot understand how anyone from the FA cannot see that dissent is ruining the game .Do any of the FA officials watch games , either live or televised ? . How can they not instruct officials to and clubs to clamp down on this problem ? . Some say it's acceptable because it's passion and heat of the moment , well so are some murders but the guilty party doesn't go unpunished .The problem is getting worse as is the other forms of cheating . Unfortunately the tv. pundits , or the majority of them , go along with it , particularly diving in the box . They say it's acceptable because " there was contact "  or would have been if he didn't go down ..Sadly what happens at the top filters down to the bottom and as a result the life of a referee at the lower levels will become unbearable in the future if there isn't a clamp down . I know you have a severe shortage of referees in your area , what will happen if future would be referees are put off by the amount of abuse from players and management .Also , less likely I know , how long before local councils are forced to close grounds following complaints from nearby residents ?

You've hit the nail right on the head fenman with all you've said. Yes and it is putting referees off from continuing to officiate.  A bad situation and worse is the seeming apathy by so many in the game. If this attitude continues, the game at our level, is I believe, in some danger of collapse.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

All a reflection on todays society I'm afraid, and, yes, not in danger of collapsing - it is collapsing.

The FA only really have eyes on the premiership, where the money is, and a huge swathe of todays football supporters believe there is nothing beyond that league.

And certainly nothing as low as local football.