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Graham Carey


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My understanding is that a football league ban only counts for football league games, 

Which means I guess we can expect to see Graham Carey playing in all games while hes banned from 1st team action . 

A quick check of the fixtures shows Argyles next 3 games in the SWPL as Cullompton, Falmouth and Saltash. 

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11 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

From Twitter last night as someone asked the same question: "All above board, suspensions are split over 3 levels, you can be sent off in one and play in the other 2"

With all due respect Dave I don't take Twitter as an authority on the subject - can somebody please point me to the FA ruling?

 

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This taken from FA On-field Disciplinary Procedures 2017/18 - Section 8

(e)  PLAYERS SENT OFF UNDER LAW 12 (1) AND (2)

A Player who is dismissed from the field of play for serious foul play under Law 12(1) or violent conduct under Law 12(2), whether he has previously been cautioned in the match or not, will be suspended automatically from all Club football, except for any match sanctioned or regarded by The Association as a Friendly Match, including non-FTCM matches commencing forthwith and until such time as his Club’s First Team has completed its next three matches in approved Competitions.

That's ALL CLUB FOOTBALL including non FTCM (First Team Competitive Matches). 

I suggest Argyle fielded an ineligible player last night.

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26 minutes ago, El Nino said:

With all due respect Dave I don't take Twitter as an authority on the subject - can somebody please point me to the FA ruling?

 

I didn't suggest Twitter was the font of all knowledge, purely trying to be helpful and lean towards the idea that the player's appearance was legitimate! :)

Apologies for quoting from Twitter again but also seen this : "Contracted Players are suspended only for the "team" they are sent off for, rather than the club. Was checked out with FA before match."

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24 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

I didn't suggest Twitter was the font of all knowledge, purely trying to be helpful and lean towards the idea that the player's appearance was legitimate! :)

Apologies for quoting from Twitter again but also seen this : "Contracted Players are suspended only for the "team" they are sent off for, rather than the club. Was checked out with FA before match."

Not wishing to turn this into a game of Top-Trumps Dave, but I suggest quoting the FA rulebook overrides any hearsay given - and those rules state CLUB not team.

FA On-field Disciplinary Procedures 2017/18 - Section 8

(e)  PLAYERS SENT OFF UNDER LAW 12 (1) AND (2) 

A Player who is dismissed from the field of play for serious foul play under Law 12(1) or violent conduct under Law 12(2), whether he has previously been cautioned in the match or not, will be suspended automatically from all Club football, except for any match sanctioned or regarded by The Association as a Friendly Match, including non-FTCM matches commencing forthwith and until such time as his Club’s First Team has completed its next three matches in approved Competitions.

 

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The whole business of playing while suspended seems to be a grey area to me. Did Mane not play for Liverpool last night in the Champions League whilst being suspended for Premier League games? Surely you are suspended or you are not. I am no expert on the numerous laws , rules and regs just an ordinary punter who enjoys the game but gets fed up with its complications and inconsistencies from League to League. Just keep it simple for Joe Public. Oh and hypothetically wouldn't it be a shame if poor old Stoke Gabriel (or any other club  for that matter) could  get relegated on goal difference because they got hammered by a club that fielded a stronger team against them than they did  against their rivals. This could also apply to teams finishing at the top who similarly may be denied promotion and of course League prize money. 

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21 minutes ago, El Nino said:

Not wishing to turn this into a game of Top-Trumps Dave, but I suggest quoting the FA rulebook overrides any hearsay given - and those rules state CLUB not team.

FA On-field Disciplinary Procedures 2017/18 - Section 8

(e)  PLAYERS SENT OFF UNDER LAW 12 (1) AND (2) 

A Player who is dismissed from the field of play for serious foul play under Law 12(1) or violent conduct under Law 12(2), whether he has previously been cautioned in the match or not, will be suspended automatically from all Club football, except for any match sanctioned or regarded by The Association as a Friendly Match, including non-FTCM matches commencing forthwith and until such time as his Club’s First Team has completed its next three matches in approved Competitions.

 

I'm sure a club like Argyle have done their homework on whether he was able to play or not. Dave's twitter quotes have come after this exact topic was brought up last night. I expect its all legal but if not im sure Argyle will be punished, not much point in trying to interpret whether we believe its okay or not

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maybe you should read the very bottom line of the picture

59ba70b647b55_ScreenShot2017-09-14at12_21_40.thumb.png.f430ffc23355251d95e4b94e58bd89fd.png

 

 

 

This is also on the FA Website.


 The Football Association will be introducing a number of changes to the regulations for all clubs operating at Step 5 and below during the 2017-18 season.
The key changes will include:-
 
 Separation of FA and County FA Offences - all suspensions imposed by a County FA will not affect a participant at Step 4 and above unless dispensation has been given by The FA for the suspension to cover all levels of the game.  
 Suspension start dates - automatic suspensions will commence seven days from the date of the offence.
 Late payment and response update – information regarding fines and potential suspensions. 
 County FA discipline commissions – changes to the personnel and qualifications required to sit on discipline commissions.
 Appealing a County FA decision – all decisions found proven can now be appealed by the participant.
 Mandatory minimum sanctions – suspensions for assaults, physical contact or threatening match officials.
 Serious offences and suspensions – automatic suspensions for all football and football related activity across County and potentially national levels.
 Football debt recovery – A review of FDR procedures.
 General updates.
 
For further information on all these matters, please download the Summary of Regulation Amendments from the resources section below. The 2017-18 Discipline Handbook, which will contain information on both these changes as well as existing regulations, will be available shortly.

 

 

 

 

From what we were told by the FA, the Separation of FA and County FA offences works in both directions

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1 hour ago, Ivory Toast said:

Interesting thread.... it certainly makes Camelfords draw against Argyle a very valuable point...i wonder how this could possably effect the relegation run-in at the end of the season :mellow:

Ivory Toast - bit of a cheek saying 'relegation run in' - Camelford had 3 bad results with numerous players away and the score lines not reflecting the game - they have then had 3 wins (including Vase) and a draw against Argyle - which they should of won and no one else has taken a point from them!!!

However your point about 'the Argyle Effect' is very valid - they are doing nothing wrong but they are affecting league positions, could affect cup progressions and most certainly affecting prize money on offer - perhaps more important than a few extra in a crowd??

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26 minutes ago, Robin Tucker said:

maybe you should read the very bottom line

59ba70b647b55_ScreenShot2017-09-14at12_21_40.thumb.png.f430ffc23355251d95e4b94e58bd89fd.png

 

 

 

 


 The Football Association will be introducing a number of changes to the regulations for all clubs operating at Step 5 and below during the 2017-18 season.
The key changes will include:-
 
 Separation of FA and County FA Offences - all suspensions imposed by a County FA will not affect a participant at Step 4 and above unless dispensation has been given by The FA for the suspension to cover all levels of the game.  
 Suspension start dates - automatic suspensions will commence seven days from the date of the offence.
 Late payment and response update – information regarding fines and potential suspensions. 
 County FA discipline commissions – changes to the personnel and qualifications required to sit on discipline commissions.
 Appealing a County FA decision – all decisions found proven can now be appealed by the participant.
 Mandatory minimum sanctions – suspensions for assaults, physical contact or threatening match officials.
 Serious offences and suspensions – automatic suspensions for all football and football related activity across County and potentially national levels.
 Football debt recovery – A review of FDR procedures.
 General updates.
 
For further information on all these matters, please download the Summary of Regulation Amendments from the resources section below. The 2017-18 Discipline Handbook, which will contain information on both these changes as well as existing regulations, will be available shortly.

Many thanks Robin Tucker....certainly answers the question....but another could be asked ... 

This document is intended to provide a brief overview of the key Regulation amendments for 2017/18 season for all Clubs operating at Step 5 and below (County FA football). Please refer to The FA or County FA handbook for the rule in its entirety and all other changes that may affect you. This is not intended to replace the Association handbook.

 

So the 'rule in its entirety' from the FA Handbook states the player is banned from all club football, yet the amendment which isn't intended to replace it, overrides that. The lawmakers are buffoons.....

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Plymouth Argyle will be aware of every loophole and anomaly in the rules of football, and will use them to their advantage, that is what professional clubs do.
What we find more distasteful is that they are prepared to humiliate a team like Stoke Gabriel, by playing professional players who earn their livelyhood playing football.
It's acceptable that they wanted to win, don't we all, but is it really necessary to hammer  a small team like Stoke Gabriel 12- 0 .
Perhaps the SWPL should look at restricting the number of full time pros playing in a league match, if that is possible, otherwise it seems that the smaller clubs will only be there to make up the numbers.
 

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FIELD OFFENCES & FAST TRACK SECTION A DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES CONCERNING FIELD OFFENCES in First Team Competitive Matches (FTCM) For Players and Officials of Clubs of the FA Premier League, Football League, the National League and The FA WSL. Note: FTCM are matches in the following competitions: FA Challenge Cup, FA Challenge Trophy, FA Premier League, Football League, Football League Cup, Football League Trophy, the National League and The FA WSL.

 

For the purposes of this section, Clubs compete at three different levels. Each level is comprised as follows – (i) The Premier League, Football League and National League; (ii) The National League (North and South Divisions), the Isthmian League, the Northern Premier League and the Southern League; 386 DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES 2016-2017 (iii) Steps 5 to 7 of the National League System, or any other league outside of the National League System which operates a match-based disciplinary system.

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12 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

“These games are just about fitness for the players,” said the Pilgrims’ boss.

“We know the standard is not what it is in reserve team football, or first team football but it’s just good for them to get some minutes under their belt.”

Some quotes above from the Herald giving an idea to how Derek Adams views the league. Why are the SWPL allowing themselves to be used in this way ? 

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Memories of their home match against St Austell last season (line up, not playing someone suspended).

Looks like a case of look out if you’re due to play PAFC away midweek.

Will Mr Carey face Cullompton, Falmouth and Saltash while serving his ban?

Would the same players have been selected if they had been away somewhere last night?

Can you imagine the reaction if one of the 1st teamers got injured playing in the CSWPL.

If you were the PAFC manager, on the back of 3 defeats, would you have sent a number of 1st teamers and fringe players out last night as an opportunity to give them some confidence building competitive match time?

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1 hour ago, Hetty said:

Some quotes above from the Herald giving an idea to how Derek Adams views the league. Why are the SWPL allowing themselves to be used in this way ? 

Because they have not got the guts to do anything about it. Why were they allowed in the league without their own ground ? The whole thing stinks !

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6 hours ago, El Nino said:

I would genuinely like somebody to show me if there is an FA rule that supersedes the one quoted.....I will happily cease pushing this point if somebody can. But if not then I ask why Argyle do not have to play to the same rules as the rest of us.

If your that keen on the matter phone Argyle and ask for an explanation instead of farting around on here do your own dirty work .

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Argyle are in the league and were voted in. They can play their full first team if they want and break no rules. Get over it, its good to have a professional team in the league (2 if you include Parkway). When I was playing it was great to play for or against Argyle, Torquay or any other league club. Its football, get a life and enjoy !   

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6 hours ago, Tractor Boy said:

The whole business of playing while suspended seems to be a grey area to me. Did Mane not play for Liverpool last night in the Champions League whilst being suspended for Premier League games? Surely you are suspended or you are not. I am no expert on the numerous laws , rules and regs just an ordinary punter who enjoys the game but gets fed up with its complications and inconsistencies from League to League. Just keep it simple for Joe Public. Oh and hypothetically wouldn't it be a shame if poor old Stoke Gabriel (or any other club  for that matter) could  get relegated on goal difference because they got hammered by a club that fielded a stronger team against them than they did  against their rivals. This could also apply to teams finishing at the top who similarly may be denied promotion and of course League prize money. 

 

I believe it takes seven days for a ban to begin after a sending off which means he was okay to play

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20 hours ago, Bobjfh said:

Ivory Toast - bit of a cheek saying 'relegation run in' - Camelford had 3 bad results with numerous players away and the score lines not reflecting the game - they have then had 3 wins (including Vase) and a draw against Argyle - which they should of won and no one else has taken a point from them!!!

However your point about 'the Argyle Effect' is very valid - they are doing nothing wrong but they are affecting league positions, could affect cup progressions and most certainly affecting prize money on offer - perhaps more important than a few extra in a crowd??

Bobjfh...it was never my intension to imply that Camelford would be anywhere near the relegation zone come the end of the season, and I apologise if it read that way. In fact the match report from their game against Arglye was full of praise for the younger Camels that stepped up to the mark for them. Any team that takes points of this Argyle side deserves credit :smiley20:

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23 hours ago, Tractor Boy said:

The whole business of playing while suspended seems to be a grey area to me. Did Mane not play for Liverpool last night in the Champions League whilst being suspended for Premier League games? Surely you are suspended or you are not. I am no expert on the numerous laws , rules and regs just an ordinary punter who enjoys the game but gets fed up with its complications and inconsistencies from League to League. Just keep it simple for Joe Public. Oh and hypothetically wouldn't it be a shame if poor old Stoke Gabriel (or any other club  for that matter) could  get relegated on goal difference because they got hammered by a club that fielded a stronger team against them than they did  against their rivals. This could also apply to teams finishing at the top who similarly may be denied promotion and of course League prize money. 

Yes Mane did play, because he is not suspended from European Fixtures, Just Premier League games.  This is where The FA have tried to standardise discipline. The suspension (if for a standard red card offence, or collection of multiple yellow cards) ONLY relates to the level of football that the card was received in.  It worked all last year - if you were sent off on a Sunday league game, you were only suspended from Sunday league football.

If Kane were to get sent off playing for England, he doesn't get banned from all football until England have played 3 games, only the International games. If he was sent off in the champions league he isnt banned from International or Premier league.

That is why Shelvey has been playing in the U23's for Newcastle for the last couple of weeks, and why Mane will play Champions League games (and probably U23) for Liverpool.

That is why the Argyle players that are suspended will play in either their U23's or the reserves.

This is the Separation of Levels of football in action, from the top to the bottom

 

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7 hours ago, secretscout said:

Would be interesting to see if he plays against Saltash given recent happenings.......

What recent happenings are they secretscout? You obviously know something we don't!

Be careful secretscout, very careful. Could be costly being sued by a professional footballer.

3 hours ago, secretscout said:

Its public knowledge. I am not saying anything that isn't known, I am merely questioning if he would play. My gut feel is no, so people shouldn't get excited at the prospect of seeing him play against Saltash. :thumbsup:

So what are you saying secretscout? What is known? Or are you merely trying to stir things up? Are you connected to Saltash and are in the know?

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The NLS - of which the SWPL is a part - is ultimately governed by the National Leagues Committee of the FA, who have the final say on which Clubs are part of the 'pyramid system'. Even if there was a desire by the majority of current member Clubs to 'oust' Argyle from the League - which I'm sure is not the case - the only exit routes are resignation or two relegations based on the League postion at the end of a season!

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28 minutes ago, Hetty said:

Clubs need to speak up at the next Agm.  How can you go from beating stoke 12-0 to losing 4-3 at cullompton. They are treating the league with utter contempt 

As I have said before, how did they ever get into the league they did not have their own ground - perhaps favours are extended to Devon clubs.

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40 minutes ago, BIG AL said:

As I have said before, how did they ever get into the league they did not have their own ground - perhaps favours are extended to Devon clubs.

Most clubs are promoted into the league.     Not so Plymouth Argyle reserves I believe.
Also no club should be allowed to change grounds to gain promotion, if their regularly used ground did not come up to the required standards.  Not so Plymouth Argyle I believe
Don't understand what makes you think that Devon clubs are favoured Big Al ?

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21 hours ago, Hetty said:

Clubs need to speak up at the next Agm.  How can you go from beating stoke 12-0 to losing 4-3 at cullompton. They are treating the league with utter contempt 

The clubs spoke at the agm two years ago and they voted Argyle in. They all knew the situation but still said yes. What's the problem?

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baldy you are right and there are pros and cons to Argyle Reserves being in the SWPL  - all of us would have different views and none carrying more weight than the other. 

HOWEVER - the presence of Argyle Reserves in the Prem (it was NOT the same when they joined the West as they played their u18 squad with no fulltime pros), does have a profound knock on effect. They could not care less about their position or silverware / prize funds - but their team selections affects those issues for everyone else. If they happen to field a first team squad on two occasions v Parkway but an u18 team twice v Tavvy, Bodmin and Saltash (by example) - Parkway could finish 5th behind Argyle, Tavvy, Saltash and Bodmin and miss promotion (not that it would work that way but is equally relevant at the other end of the table).

Every team in the SWPL Prem field their best available team - Argyle work to a different set of priorities - it's that that winds supporters up. 

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Argyle were democratically elected into the SWPL to fill a vacancy which existed at that time. Their proposed ground met the required FA Step 7 criteria - but the discovery of asbestos in the changing rooms later ruled out that venue. Seal Hayne was far from an ideal location for West Division Clubs to travel to but, again, it met the criteria for entry at Step 7. An agreement to play at Coach Road was in place prior to the deadline for their promotion to the Premier Division.

It is quite clear that Argyle team selection is an issue for some people and I can appreciate the concerns about some of the possible scenarios mentioned; however, it is what it is and only Argyle can change that situation - not the League Officers, Member Clubs or even their supporters.

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6 minutes ago, John Mead said:

Argyle were democratically elected into the SWPL to fill a vacancy which existed at that time. Their proposed ground met the required FA Step 7 criteria - but the discovery of asbestos in the changing rooms later ruled out that venue. Seal Hayne was far from an ideal location for West Division Clubs to travel to but, again, it met the criteria for entry at Step 7. An agreement to play at Coach Road was in place prior to the deadline for their promotion to the Premier Division.

It is quite clear that Argyle team selection is an issue for some people and I can appreciate the concerns about some of the possible scenarios mentioned; however, it is what it is and only Argyle can change that situation - not the League Officers, Member Clubs or even their supporters.

League officers blameless once again - they really can do no wrong at any time or level !

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Just now, BIG AL said:

League officers blameless once again - they really can do no wrong at any time or level !

Can you suggest what they could have done differently while still conforming to FA and NLS Regulations?

I know you have little regard for SWPL or CCFA Officials Big Al but someone has to over-see our great, National Game in this neck of the woods; imagine what it would be like if it was controlled by the Cornwall Football Forum instead!!

And please don't reply "They couldn't do any worse."

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Why are teams complaining about the team Plymouth Argyle are able to field? And what is so different today compared to 60 years ago?

In the 1950s Plymouth Argyle Reserves played in the Combination and their third team played in the SWL. On occasion, they would field their entire Combination side in the SWL. Bideford Town did the same with their Western League team fulfilling one game and their SWL XI playing another.

Falmouth Town have played 'ringers' in the past, as have Bodmin Town. Players who played Western League dropping down. Even St Just in the Combination have fielded Plymouth based SWL players on occasion.

How can league officials be to blame for any of the above taking place. All is within rules.

If Plymouth Argyle wish to field their entire League One team every week, then there is nothing that can be done to stop them. All players are registered and available for selection. They'd have little to gain if they won the league but they, and the league officials are doing nothing wrong.

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41 minutes ago, John Mead said:

Can you suggest what they could have done differently while still conforming to FA and NLS Regulations?

I know you have little regard for SWPL or CCFA Officials Big Al but someone has to over-see our great, National Game in this neck of the woods; imagine what it would be like if it was controlled by the Cornwall Football Forum instead!!

And please don't reply "They couldn't do any worse."

The western league out right refuse to accept reserve teams. Why can't the SWPL 

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has football changed?when we used to play against the bigger teams/better players my team mates used to get more pumped up for the game and try harder....maybe even try and put in such a great performance that argyle or Falmouth town etc might want  you one day ......Martin gritton was the perfect example of this .....went on to play pro football from nowhere 

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