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Vague football laws.


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Ok so I have seen some strange decisions given recently, I was wondering what the other members of the forum have seen that has made them think 'what the hell was that given for/or not!', I'll start the ball rolling.

i saw a foul throw given this week for 'a spinning ball', words from the man in black, now as far as I know I can not see a law which states the ball is not aloud to spin when thrown, and actually, I'd love to see anyone throw a ball further than a couple of yards without it rotating at all!

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The foul throw-in law should be abolished entirely. All it does is just slow everything down and is the source of needless frustration. So what if a throw in looks ungainly, wasn't thrown perfectly from behind the head, a foot was millimetres off the ground, or the ball was, er, spinning? Does it really matter? Really? How many teams (especially at our level) are good enough to retain possession of the ball for even a few seconds after they've thrown in anyway? Let's just get on with the game!

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The spinning ball myth comes because at times when the ball rotates side-ways it shows that both hands may not have been at the side of the ball, as per the laws of the game.

 

I say myth as most of the times the ball is spinning it appears both hands are on the side of the ball so it is play on.

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Law 15 - The Throw In

A throw-in is a method of restarting play. A throw-in is awarded to the opponents of the player who last touched the ball when the whole of the ball crosses the touch line, either on the ground or in the air. A goal cannot be scored directly from a throw-in.

Procedure At the moment of delivering the ball, the thrower:
• faces the field of play
• has part of each foot either on the touch line or on the ground outside the touch line
• holds the ball with both hands
• delivers the ball from behind and over his head
• delivers the ball from the point where it left the field of play All opponents must stand no less than 2 m (2 yds) from the point at which the throw-in is taken.

The ball is in play when it enters the field of play. After delivering the ball, the thrower must not touch the ball again until it has touched another player.

Infringements and sanctions

Throw-in taken by a player other than the goalkeeper

If, after the ball is in play, the thrower touches the ball again (except with his hands) before it has touched another player:
• an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team, to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick)

If, after the ball is in play, the thrower deliberately handles the ball before it has touched another player:
• a direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team, to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick)
• a penalty kick is awarded if the infringement occurred inside the thrower’s penalty area

Throw-in taken by the goalkeeper

If, after the ball is in play, the goalkeeper touches the ball again (except with his hands), before it has touched another player:
• an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team, to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick)

If, after the ball is in play, the goalkeeper deliberately handles the ball before it has touched another player:
• a direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if the infringement occurred outside the goalkeeper’s penalty area, to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick)
• an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if the infringement occurred inside the goalkeeper’s penalty area, to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 – Position of free kick)

If an opponent unfairly distracts or impedes the thrower he is cautioned for unsporting behaviour. 

For any other infringement of this Law: • the throw-in is taken by a player of the opposing team

Procedure - Infringements 

Referees are reminded that opponents may be no closer than 2 m from the point at which the throw-in is taken. Where necessary, the referee must warn any player within this distance before the throw-in is taken and caution the player if he subsequently fails to retreat to the correct distance. Play is restarted with a throw-in.

If a player, while correctly taking a throw-in, intentionally throws the ball at an opponent in order to play the ball again but neither in a careless nor a reckless manner nor using excessive force, the referee must allow play to continue.

If the ball enters the opponents’ goal directly from a throw-in, the referee must award a goal kick. If the ball enters the thrower’s own goal directly from a throw-in, the referee must award a corner kick.

If the ball touches the ground before entering the field of play, the throw-in is retaken by the same team from the same position provided that it was taken in line with the correct procedure. If the throw-in is not taken in line with the correct procedure, it is retaken by the opposing team.

 

Not one mention of spinning. A ball which has been launched in the air will very rarely be thrown in a way where no spin will occur. Naturally, one hand will release the ball a fraction sooner than the other, causing friction, resulting in indifferent forces (which causes spin) acting on the ball. Then, Gravity, air (wind, forward motion) and drag will play a part so even if the ball is thrown perfectly with no spin, the flight will be interfered with due to physics.     

I paid attention in school :thumbsup:

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The bit about the throw-in which gets my goat is when the thrower is penalised for not releasing the ball from "behind or over the head" when throwing it to a player close to him. The law doesn't mention where the ball must be released and any punishment should only be implemented if an unfair advantage is gained - which is clearly not the case in this senario. In fact, anyone taking a long throw-in is still in contact with the ball when his hands are a long way in front of his head.

You don't see such "foul throws"  awarded by refs in European games.

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There was one today by Rojo vs Tottenham. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it. He threw the ball downwards but it's travel went from behind his head, over and above and he released just above his forehead; in law, completely legitimate but the ref called it. 

When I've penalised for foul throws, as far as I can remember it's only ever been for a foot leaving the ground or feet on the field of play (in front of the line). 

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The spinning ball myth comes from a player using one hand behind the ball and then the other being on the side which causes an unnatural spin and makes the ball go further. THAT IS a foul throw. If it spins but the hands are on the side of the ball then there's no problem. Dave can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

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No mention of spinning or hand orientation in the laws mate (just checked the book for reassurance). So long as the thrower has two hands on it, there's no issue.

It may have been changed in next years laws but I've not had a look... I don't want to confuse myself before the new changes take place. It's Law 15 so even in my Law Change threads on this forum (which I'm posting when I get time), It'll be a little while until I get to the throw in.

Just a myth I'm afraid mate; I've seen refs penalise for spinning balls in the premier league... So maybe there has been an IFAB procedure released at some point? I'll do some digging :)

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On 10/04/2016 at 22:34, Dange'rous said:

There was one today by Rojo vs Tottenham. Personally I saw nothing wrong with it. He threw the ball downwards but it's travel went from behind his head, over and above and he released just above his forehead; in law, completely legitimate but the ref called it. 

When I've penalised for foul throws, as far as I can remember it's only ever been for a foot leaving the ground or feet on the field of play (in front of the line). 

Can one foot be wholly on the pitch if the other foot is behind the line?

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I think I'm right in saying that both hands must release it at the same time? On the course this weekend, I remember something about players placing one hand directly behind the ball and one on the side and it leading to a foul throw. I could be wildly wrong here - as B Manning has already pointed out. I don't think it's the spin that causes the foul throw but sometimes the method of throw that has caused the spin. This is all making far more sense in my head so apologies if that's not coming across right.

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Yes Tempo you are correct in how the ball should be thrown, but in all my games, probably about 2500 now I have never seen a ball thrown with one hand behind the ball so I don't think it's anything to worry about. But these last two seasons I have had players and managers shouting at me " he is spinning the ball". So where this myth has sprung from I do not know.

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What you have to bare in mind Dan is that as referees, we are governed and have to enforce the LOTG... If they don't mention about a set procedure I.e purposely adding a degree of spin on the ball (which is what I think you are getting at), then it's allowed.

Im sure I've seen on various forums that the IFAB sometimes release documents when a clarification on a law or a certain aspect of it is a bit jaded and needs explaining, I'm not sure if you know where I can find these @B Manning

Edited to say... 2500 games and still going? I applaud that :thumbsup:

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Thank you. I once wrongly flagged for a foul throw as I was under the belief that both feet had to be behind the line. I thought I knew all the rules. It didn't make a difference as we lost the match anyway and I hold my hands up to my error.

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8 minutes ago, Willow Tree said:

Thank you. I once wrongly flagged for a foul throw as I was under the belief that both feet had to be behind the line. I thought I knew all the rules. It didn't make a difference as we lost the match anyway and I hold my hands up to my error.

Both feet have to be on the line or behind the line. One of the feet cannot be in front of the line and therefore on the field of play. 

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The heel was on the line with the toes on the pitch and with the other foot behind the line so it was a legal throw that I got wrong. A wise referee pointed it out to me after the game.

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The laws have changed wording, but both hands must be used the throw the ball, not one guiding it and the other launching it from behind. 

 

This is the point I think Tempo is alluding too, along with the instructors at the weekend (this is what we as instructors have always taught before).

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Willow, in your circumstance it is ok to have the heel of a foot/feet on the line with the ball of the foot into the field of play, where it becomes a foul throw is as the ball is thrown you tend to come up onto your toes and then the heel/heels leave the ground and then are not in contact with the touch line.

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How do refs feel about the John moss performance from Sunday and the subsequent comments from retired refs who are still trying to eek out their time in the spotlight.  Those that have retired are now happy to critiscise or make opinions with the addition of video evidence now

 

of course, graham poll and Howard Webb never got any decisions wrong

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Referees literally have a few seconds to make a decision. The two penalties were a little soft...

Vardy's first yellow was given during quite an intense period where John Moss was trying to bring down the level of the game. This is where he would blow for everything and caution where needed... So, would he have carded that in the 3rd or 4th minute? Maybe not.

His second, I believe is spot on! Vardy had hit the ball out to his left, yet he invited the challenge (which he is within his rights to do)... But instead of running left to get the ball, he takes a sideways motion to the right and puts his leg across the defender. Definitely looking for a penalty and definitely attempting to deceive the referee. Spot on call for me. It should also be noted that JM had a very good view of the incident.

Vardy will be in even bigger trouble now due to his reaction. You can not do that! Yet, because football fans (and of course players) are seeing that sort of behaviour week in week out, they think it's okay to recreate that in their games at grassroots. It shouldn't be tolerated. But you have to bear in mind that whilst all of the referees down here do their job in accordance with the Laws of The Game, FA and competition rules... These referees are governed by the Premier League and so follow different protocol. Because of this problem at the top, it's very hard to eradicate at the bottom.

Referee's down here need to be very strong with dissent and take the necessary action when required. Most of my cautions this season have been for dissent. BUT, there are clubs where the managers lead the line for abusive/offensive behaviour and dissent, that needs to be stamped out. The Respect Campaign... Well, that's another topic in itself.

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I didn't think the first booking was right for Vardy but you can't appeal that. However, I thought he dived and deserved the yellow card, however like the penalty that was given there was contact

but what about the inconsistency in dealing with the pushing and holding at set pieces. Gives one and not the other, that's where people get frustrated. 

I think the extra punishment for Vardy is harsh, he was frustrated and I'm pretty sure that refs have dealt with worse than that

consistency is all that people want 

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Watch the game again, and just note how much cheating was going on in that match - it was endless.

I think the ref just got fed up with all the falling down, pushing , pulling, appeals, and so on - I don't blame him one iota for the actions he took.

In fact, he could have done a lot more, and I wouldn't have blamed him for that neither.

As for was it, wasn't it, a penalty, pull, or push, he gave them as he saw it - not in hindsight with a hundred replays and angles.

Well done from me....next time - book the bloody lot of cheating, diving, plonkers.

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The thing is, they are the ones there in the middle at that time. That wouldn't have been an easy game for him. I just hope that the FA and PL stand by him after all the negative press he's receiving 

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36 minutes ago, Tempo said:

Couldn't agree more. Shearer was chatting absolute BS if you ask me.

That is what he gets paid a great deal of money to do! Be controversial. Look how many column inches he's generated (not to mention posts on social media!). His employers will be loving it. How many more thousands will tune in next time to hear what other cr&p he can serve up?

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1 minute ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

That is what he gets paid a great deal of money to do! Be controversial. Look how many column inches he's generated (not to mention posts on social media!). His employers will be loving it. How many more thousands will tune in next time to hear what other cr&p he can serve up?

Oh yeah for sure. What he said is nothing compared to the BS they discuss on TalkSport

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Going back to the original topic " vague football laws"..... if a team has a free kick in an attacking position and ask the referee if they can take it quickly, to which he agrees, does the referee still need to blow his whistle? 

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4 minutes ago, G2DO said:

Going back to the original topic " vague football laws"..... if a team has a free kick in an attacking position and ask the referee if they can take it quickly, to which he agrees, does the referee still need to blow his whistle? 

No. But we were advised that if a wall was being set up to not allow the quick free kick.

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Oxford v Cornwall Youth a few years ago and the referee gave a free kick to the home team. Our goalkeeper was calling all the players together to form a wall as we were retreating from the position where the ball was placed, he had his hand on the post waving our players into position when their player floated a ball into the top corner and the goal was allowed to stand.

I guess we weren't pleased as quite rightly he could see we were setting up a wall and therefore shouldn't allow it to go ahead.

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9 minutes ago, G2DO said:

Going back to the original topic " vague football laws"..... if a team has a free kick in an attacking position and ask the referee if they can take it quickly, to which he agrees, does the referee still need to blow his whistle? 

I blow the whistle for the foul... If they want to take it quick, they take it quick. They have a few seconds to do so, if not then it's on the whistle in the attacking third, otherwise a vocal is usually sufficient. 

I wouldn't allow a quick free kick if I blew for the offence, where they thenwait for me to get to the ball to start pacing the wall... Then take it quick... That for me is taking the piss as the defence has started organising for a wall. So, if you want a free kick to be taken quickly, do just that.

Just be mindful that if you take a free kick quickly and the ball hits an opposing player (who is moving away from the ball to respect the 10 yards, making no attempt to delay the restart), then tough titties :) 

 

 

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Fair enough! Someone may want to mention this to Liam Mankee then!

During our game this week he gave a foul on the outside of the box, we started making the wall with our keeper on his post directing us. Not sure how long there was between him awarding the free kick and them taking it but there was enough time for us to get 4 guys in the wall and back to what we presumed was 10 yards (which being late in the game and already losing heavily is never the quickest thing to organise). The conversation between the ref and their player obviously took place during that and he curled into the other corner!  

(Btw it didn't affect the result in any way so no sour grapes or anything it just didn't seem right!)

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An experienced ex SWL ref once told me before a game that if we wanted to take a quick free kick then it was our decision. 

What about the 'fake corner' routine where a player drags his foot over the ball and another player goes and runs the ball into the area. I saw Darren Burchell do that once and it was allowed yet a similar scenario at Teignmouth wasn't and possibly the player booked for ungentlemanly conduct or something, I can't remember exactly.

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G2DO, I won't comment on another referees decisions but what you have to bare In mind is that whilst we all know the laws (hopefully), out interpretation may be different. We also have our own style of refereeing. So, whilst I and Mr Manning (for example) may carry a whistle during the game, how we choose to use it may alter depending on our styles (and experience).

Personally, if I am making my way to the position of a free kick within a few seconds after I've blown; if they've not taken the opportunity to take the kick quickly, it will be taken on my call each time. 

It is of course the players decision to take a quick free kick, but if I'm on my way to pace a wall out with my back towards the ball (but face towards the majority of the players), then that ball will stay there until I've finished with the wall and then positioned myself appropriately to get a good view of the ball and potential playing area.

As for the corner routine, they've corrected that next season (see the post I created this morning). The ball now has to move before a player can run off with it. You can't just touch it and then the other player run away with it, it has to be seen to move.

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1 hour ago, Bruegel the Elder said:

Nice to have two of you Tempo and Dange'rous, quick off the mark to answer our interpretation queries. Even better when you guys seem to agree!

P.S. Tempo, what is the beardie (you?) brandishing in your avatar, and should it be allowed on the pitch?

I'm still learning so feel free to correct me if I'm ever miles off the bat on my interpretations.

 

im not the beardy, no. I can't see what he's brandishing either as I'm on my phone unfortunately but I'm going to assume it's a wrist band or jewellery in which case the answer would be no.

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