Bizarre Penalties

[Kettle]

In the Vase match between Cullompton and Wadebridge the ref gave Cully two pens. The first when a player was running away from goal in front of our defender and fell as their legs crossed accidentally...seen them given...but frustrating as they were not likely to score from that situation. Ref insisted the defender had tried to trip him on purpose....of course, that's what we all do in that situation isn't it!!! As I said, seen them given, benefit of the doubt.

But, the worst penalty I have ever seen awarded in my life in any match happened later in the game.

They played a high ball forward, it bounced up and our keeper took a clean catch, way above his head. The forward ran very close to the keepr and they collided causing both of them to get hurt and require treatment. In my view a free-kick to the keeper, especially as he had full control of the ball and the forward had no chance whatsoever of getting the ball and should not have been trying to make a challenge.

Ref runs over and gives a pen to everyone in the grounds total amazement!

Afterwards we had a very calm and constructive chat and the ref said he thought the keeper had caught the forward on purpose with his knee, I made the case for every keeper in the world who gets taught to go up with one knee bent to protect himself when the ball is above his head but he said, well that's the same as using your arms for elevation when trying to win a header, everyone does it but it gets messy if you catch somebody with your elbow!

Has anyone ever seen a penalty given against a keeper for this before?

I said to the ref I've not seen it before and doubt if I will ever see it again.

All in all, a good win for us and well deserved as their only other shot whistled past the post and that would have been it for them without the pens.

Up the Bridgers!

[Home Waters]

:thumbsup: Stuart that must be your first calm and constructive approach to a referee, its not old age is it, at last some of the training has paid off :yahoo:

[the big number9]

i think if the keeper comes out to claim the ball and deliberatly clatters the foward with his knee then it should be a foul, if it happened in the middle of the park and a player came charging foward won a header and followed through with his knee its a free kick.earlier this season i went for a headed against vospers oak villa- won it and the keeper( who was sprinting out )punched me in the head and kneed me in the thigh, no foul given, meaning i had to go off with a split quad and have since missed a game and came off with a reaccurance of the injury twice and its still not right now.

[Kettle]

Big number 9 I take your point but there was no deliberate clattering being done by the keeper they both bumped into each other, the player had no way of winning the ball and did not need to go anywhere near the keeper.

Cadders - it's a lot easier to remain calm and constructive when your able to make a difference to the game by having the ultimate decision on who plays where and why and also knowing that what you do and say to the players is taken on board and carried out because it's you they have to please to get to play!

[Guest tom@white tigers]

Some times i just don't know how these referees are allowed to ref at all.

[Kettle]

Also, "the training" I got from Gez about building team spirit is holding me in good stead, although my head is still a bit sore from Sat night!

I must add that we have had some excellent refs this season so far, none more so than Steve Nute. Best performance from a ref I've seen in a long time when he came to Wadebridge.

[Guest crosser]

In the Vase match between Cullompton and Wadebridge the ref gave Cully two pens. The first when a player was running away from goal in front of our defender and fell as their legs crossed accidentally...seen them given...but frustrating as they were not likely to score from that situation. Ref insisted the defender had tried to trip him on purpose....of course, that's what we all do in that situation isn't it!!! As I said, seen them given, benefit of the doubt.

what difference does it make in what direction the player is running or if he's going to score it's a penalty area any foul (in the ref's opinion) in the area should make it a a penalty, but it does sound like you were harshly treated.

[Guest BJs]

Was a goalkeeper (even got paid) now a referee, (don't get paid much) I always came out with my knee up (all pros are taught this). This is what you call self defence

[Guest plainmoor]

In the Vase match between Cullompton and Wadebridge the ref gave Cully two pens. The first when a player was running away from goal in front of our defender and fell as their legs crossed accidentally...seen them given...but frustrating as they were not likely to score from that situation. Ref insisted the defender had tried to trip him on purpose....of course, that's what we all do in that situation isn't it!!! As I said, seen them given, benefit of the doubt.

But, the worst penalty I have ever seen awarded in my life in any match happened later in the game.

They played a high ball forward, it bounced up and our keeper took a clean catch, way above his head. The forward ran very close to the keepr and they collided causing both of them to get hurt and require treatment. In my view a free-kick to the keeper, especially as he had full control of the ball and the forward had no chance whatsoever of getting the ball and should not have been trying to make a challenge.

Ref runs over and gives a pen to everyone in the grounds total amazement!

Afterwards we had a very calm and constructive chat and the ref said he thought the keeper had caught the forward on purpose with his knee, I made the case for every keeper in the world who gets taught to go up with one knee bent to protect himself when the ball is above his head but he said, well that's the same as using your arms for elevation when trying to win a header, everyone does it but it gets messy if you catch somebody with your elbow!

Has anyone ever seen a penalty given against a keeper for this before?

I said to the ref I've not seen it before and doubt if I will ever see it again.

All in all, a good win for us and well deserved as their only other shot whistled past the post and that would have been it for them without the pens.

Up the Bridgers!

Firstly I've high-lighted in blue some of the main points, but I guess these are 2 of those incidents when "you had to be there" to see the full picture.

1) 9 times out of ten the player behind will always be penalised, he hasn't got eyes in the back of his head, accidently or not this is still a foul. It's been a while since I looked at the rule book, but accidently doesn't come in to it, a referee can not differentiate between deliberate and accidental.

2) 'The player ran very closed to' how close 6", 1ft, 2ft, 3ft more? you then go on to say he was making a challenge, with what part of his body did he make this challenge, was he slowing down, I rather think he might have been.

3) When they both collided, the keeper would be seen as the agressor, as he had a raised knee, this is not necessary unless the keeper wants to inflict pain and injury to the other player.

4) The ref after the match said he thought the keeper caught the other player 'on purpose' with his knee, I agree it shouldn't have been up there (see point 3). The ref was wrong in his thinking with regard to the word 'purpose' he should judge each challenge as to whether it was careless, reckless or using excessive force, if he 'thought' (which he shouldn't have) that the keeper had done it on purpose then it should have been a red card for using excessive force, he got off lightly (a knee up can do some serious damage).

You never see a basket ball player jumping with his knee up do you? jumping without the raised knee can and should be done, I hope that he has learnt his lesson and will not make the same mistake again.

Jumping without a raised leg can be done, as someone else has said if it was done on the pitch, say a defender against your attacker, no doubt you would be up in arms and calling for a foul.

Yes I've seen them given for this and in my time I've also given a penalty for the keeper raising his leg (only if contact is made with the opposing player, if not then it would be an indirect free kick for dangerous play).

BJs, so you were taught how to injure and inflict pain upon people were you? Self defence my back side, a keeper is just another player who has the privillage of handling the ball within his own penalty area thats all nothing more nothing less.

I hope you Stuart and your keeper have learnt from this episode, try to comply with the rules and not forget that they are there after they have been broken, don't just teach your players how to play football but how to play football within the rules of the game and teach them what those rules are.

All the best for the rest of the season.

[Guest Ian]

"I hope you Stuart and your keeper have learnt from this episode, try to comply with the rules and not forget that they are there after they have been broken, don't just teach your players how to play football but how to play football within the rules of the game and teach them what those rules are.

All the best for the rest of the season."

Plainmoor, dont know who you are but you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself and the rules of the game. Firstly Wadebridge manager is a highly quallified coach, and in his time a reasonably good goalkeeper. The bridgers keeper is also has a wealth of experience, and is no youngster looking for sympathy. This referee took hardly any notice of his assisstants throughout the game, if he had there would have been no need for any of the two pens. I have followed local football for a long time, and have never shouted at a referee in that time as I realise they have a very difficult job to do, also they are the best we have got,BUT, they all have a bad day, and this referee must have had the worst day in his career.

We all know the referee has the final say, but if you have two assisstants ( who were also vey quallified) he should take notice of them, especially when penalties are given and the assisstant is waving his flag like hell.

[B Manning]

Reference to Plainmoor`s post item1, of course a referee can differentiate between accidental and deliberate, if as a referee in a game, in my opinion contact between players was accidental there is no way I can award a free kick to either side. It`s slightly different where dangerous play is concerned if I deem that a player is playing in a dangerous manner I award an indirect free kick against him.

[Guest]

This appears to be based on one persons view from one particular angle. I have always been against a goalkeeper raising his knee in a supposed defensive action. It’s like saying to an outfield player its ok to go into a tackle with your foot raised high because you feared being fouled. It seems we will have to go on what the referee saw and interpreted. I would suggest a raised knee is correctly deemed intent.

[Guest Ian]

EPCL, I think most keepers would disagree with your last statement.

[Guest plainmoor]

Plainmoor, dont know who you are but you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself and the rules of the game.

Oh I am sorry if I gave the impression that I have a high opinion of myself, I didn't mean to, could you point me in the right direction as to where I have put myself on a pedestal and bigged myself up because I can't find it anywhere?

But then again it's good that someone has a high opinion of the rules of the game because it seems quite obvious that the keeper and the manager do not. And while the manager may be a very good coach with all the badges, this means that he can teach a player to pass a ball and where to stand at a corner, what the badges can't do is tell him and the players how to comply with the rules' when was the last time you knew of a team that before or after physical training had a classroom lesson on how to play the game within the rules and more importantly what those rules are? Never I bet.

B Manning, show me in the rule book where it says a ref can differentiate between accidental and deliberate when it comes to fouls, it doesn't, just because a player accidentally trips another player does not mean it is not a foul, it is either careless, reckless or using excessive force.

Player: "Sorry ref I didn't mean to handle the ball on the line"

Ref: "Oh thats ok then, if you didn't mean to and it was an accident, it was an accident wasn't it"?

Player: "Yes ref a total accident"

Ref: "OK then I'll scrap the penalty against you, also the red card and we'll start with er... a drop ball, how does that sound"?

[Magic Mike]

LOOKS LIKE EVEN THE REFS CANT AGREE ON THINGS NOW!!

THERES NO HOPE FOR ANYONE IS THERE!!!

ESPECIALLY IF THE MEN (AND WOMEN) IN BLACK CANT AGREE ON THINGS!!!

[Guest]

You are correct Ian. Most if not all goalkeepers would disagree. Unfortunately the laws of the game must be adhered to.

[Kettle]

Mr Plainmoor,

I'd be more than happy for you to come to Wadebridge and give us this invaluable lesson, but, of course you must remember to give us it with the views and opinions of all the ref's we will have for the rest of the season taken into account.

Anything written in black and white is open to interpretation, whether you had a good view, in your opinion it was reckless careless or anything else, so, whilst I am a student of the game and can show you my most recent "laws of the game" reading material, what nobody can do is predict anyones opinion.

One point on the raised leg issue...in basketball all players are reaching with their hands up for the ball, trying to catch it, not the case when an outfield player is challenging the keeper, bad example. Two outfield players challenge for the ball, both have their arms for leverage and often bump into each other with arms across each others chests/shoulders/necks/faces. The keeper has no way of catching the ball whilst protecting himself from this clash, therefore a raised knee prevents outfield players making, as you say, reckless challenges on keepers.

The point was, the ball was not there to be won and the player ran into the keeper from my view. From the ref's view the keeper deliberately hit the player with his knee, even though he could not have any other way of stopping himself getting hurt.

Thankyou for pointing out all the lessons that I and my keeper should have learnt from this though, very reasonable. :D

[Guest Ian]

Plainmoor, are we talking rules or laws, which are completly different. The laws of the game are the ones used in how the game should be played, and what is an offence and what should be given for that offence, ie, direct/indirect free kick or penalty. Having served on many disciplinary committee,s I think you will find that Laws 12/13 of the FA handbook covers most of what this topic is about. Glad to hear you read the rule book Plainmoor, now you just have to read the Laws.

ps, I believe that when goalkeepers jump with there knee up it is called a "High jump spring"

[B Manning]

Plainmoor, back to you, please show me in my post where I mentioned fouls of course fouls are deliberate, I was under the impression that we were talking contact and the referee`s opinion as whether it was accidental which you seemed to be saying that referee had no choice but to award a foul.So please dont twist my post to suit your idea`s. Another point you show me in LOAF where it says a referee can`t differentiate between accidental and deliberate.