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Ecplapectator

Standard of refs in ecpl

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The law states foul and offensive language is a sending off offence it doesn`t matter if its directed at anyone. yes each ref may be different , I`m not saying every time someone swears it a sending off its the situation that matte,r If the player swears and it clearly heard from 40 yards like it was said then it needs to be dealt with and if the ref deems it a sending of so be it . I`m sure if you were 40 yards away and heard the referee shout out in frustration F&&k off , wouldn`t you want him dealt with , I`m sure .

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To be fair Ian we won the game so not sour . I did say he was bad for both teams , the only red was westys the other 3 were very soft . If all refs are going to send someone off when they a swear word involved there will no players on the pitch by half time ... A bere player actually shouted c##t near the end of the game if the ref was being consistent that player should of gone to ?? The end of the day common sense should be used if it aimed at ref or assistants then yes ref card if in frustration and not aimed at anyone a quiet word would be sensible .....

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Swearing goes on in football due to mainly frustration none of it was directed to any official this ref was on a power trip and ruined a good game of football nothing dirty apart from the one decision he got right 2 sent off in the first 20 then sending people off from sideline then tried makin up for several errors by sending st Dom player off if u get sent of for being frustrated the game would be abandoned after ten mins

If you feel so strongly about this Ref then report him as an ex ref you should know the county will look at him , oh as well as a ex ref did you even think to have a word with the ref after the game to chat about what you saw a felt or is it easier for you to come on here and berate the ref where he is unable to defend his decisions .

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I`ve been reading this topic with some interest , not only as a Referee but as an assessor and mentor , It does strike me that if things go against a team i:e losing a game the easiest option is its the refs fault , I myself wasn`t at this game but I know the Referee quite well ( that is if it was the ref that was fixture to do the game ) and knowing him I would say if he felt the players deserved to be dismissed , then he did his job , As I said I wasn`t there so I can only surmise he did the right thing . No referee wants to send players off , but there are times when you have to do what you have to do , each referee is different they see and handle a game differently to each other . Experience has been brought up which is a good point , but you could of refereed at a high level but you will still make mistakes , the problem is that it stands out more . Would I as a referee at this game sent a player off if I was 40 yards away and clearly heard him say F&&K off, probably yes , would my old friend Martin Smith ( Lynx Affect) sent him off, again probably yes but he would of handle the situation differently from me, does that make me a bad referee ( NO ) does that make him a better referee ( NO ) . As referees we go out on a Saturday afternoon to be involved in a game of football , for fun , yes we have to put up with a certain amount of criticism and our parenthood disputed , but we turn up week after week . Yes we all know we make mistakes , ECPL to say the man in the middle are not allowed to make mistakes is a bit harsh , believe me we are human and to err is human . We each have a different outlook on life so we handle people in different ways, I myself will be very vocal during the game constantly talking to players keeping them informed of what is happening, but still doing my job this works for me , where Smithy will have a more pally approach similar to Al johns but this works for them . So we are all different in our ways . I`m sure there are plenty of teams who must think on a Saturday when I arrive oh crap we have him today, as this probably happens to most of us . We are liked by some and disliked by others . You give a penalty to one side and they love you 2 minutes later you award a penalty against them and your the worst thin g on the planet , ( that's a referees lots ) .

Give the man in the middle a break . he is human not some sort of divine being he will make errors but how many times when he plays that advantage and you score do you then say well done ref , how many times has a striker missed a sitter to draw or win a game and we as refs or his team mates spend all our Saturday night on here ripping into him . never to my knowledge .

Smithy I hope you had a great Christmas and happy new year :thumbsup::thumbsup: Al I`ve missed the last two weeks too mate we must be out of favour not like young Martin Happy new year Al good to see you back :P

Ian I must agree with your comments as we all handle things in a different way. I think Martins problem is he used to do a lot of lines for me and picked up my bad habits (Only joking, my style of refereeing) but at the end of the day we all try our best and above all do it for enjoyment. Re the last two weeks perhaps we lack experience and will be given games in time. Happy new year to you mate and perhaps we will watch a game together when everybody else is refereeing

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To be fair Ian we won the game so not sour . I did say he was bad for both teams , the only red was westys the other 3 were very soft . If all refs are going to send someone off when they a swear word involved there will no players on the pitch by half time ... A bere player actually shouted c##t near the end of the game if the ref was being consistent that player should of gone to ?? The end of the day common sense should be used if it aimed at ref or assistants then yes ref card if in frustration and not aimed at anyone a quiet word would be sensible .....

Fair shout jay as I said I was not there so I can only surmise what went on . any way have a good new year and the best to the family .

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I never said I was an ex ref read the quote properly and u won't get confused

Oops I`m bad sorry I made a mistake . totally confused so so sorry , the post should of been meant for ECPL . Now this ref has admitted he was wrong :SM_carton: red card for me lol.

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goodsense. You imply that swearing is a sending off offense. I'm sorry but if as you imply a referee must apply the laws of the game then you can kiss football goodbye. Its the same old nonsense, back the referee at all costs. And no Smithy would not have sent the St Dominick player off, I would suggest that he would have ignored it completely and got on with the game. As I said previously knowing the laws of the game inside out does not make you a good referee it is applying them with good old fashioned COMMON SENSE. Even going back donkey's years there is no way I would have given anything and got on with the game. If you go on to the field with an attitude of the laws are the laws then you wont last long in this game and we do need referees or our game is finished. COMMON SENSE. That is all that is needed.

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I do not imply each time a player swears he should be sent off as I stated earlier the law is the law , but I did say if the ref deemed it a sending off offence then so be it , but like I said I wasn`t there so I`m only going from what is written on here . Martin may not off sent him off where I may off but still as we were not refereeing this game you can only guess what we would of done . Did you go a talk to the ref after the game o try and give him some help or advise, I`m sure if I was there and felt he needed some advise I would of had a word to see if I could of helped as a ex ref I`m sure you have a wealth of knowledge you could of passed on to him , which would of been better than having a go at him on here .

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ECPL yes use of foul/ offensive/ abusive language is a sending off offence no matter how it`s done, we referee`s recently received an e-mail from the FA directing us to enforce that law, so it`s in the hands of the players etc don`t use it and you cannot be sent off for it, simples.

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Give the refs slack when they start giving players slack end of the day it's the players that are playing the game and will get frustrated the ref makes decisions now days u can't tackle and u can't speak wtf is going on with this game no swearing were all adults it's not djm

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The way some people complain, you'd think this Law was created a few days ago and it was never advertised or published.

Tell your players not to swear at anyone and then you can complain about being unlucky as it was obviously a mistaken identity case.

Just watching Howard Webb as we speak, he missed an obvious penalty for Liverpool. Nobody from Chelsea has complained by the way. They don't get any more experienced than that fella, just as well he doesn't do ECFL matches ............imagine the stick he'd get on here from those much wiser !

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B manning if you all had e mails about why is no-one taking any notice as I said most refs just get on with it swear in frustration banned for three games £40 odd pound fine its a complete joke if all refs sent off players for swearing fair enough but when its the odd one how do players no where they stand if you swear in a public place a policeman will have a quiet word yet the punishment doing it on a football pitch is what it is a joke

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It all down to interpretation. The laws are a guide. Some referees apply it strictly to the letter and some use discretion some do both. Us refs are arbiters not judges and we make decisions based on the facts presented to us. Knowing the laws and applying the laws to real life situation are two different things. To gain experience to become good referees we must make mistakes in the first place to learn from. Unfortunately at this level the number of mistakes is higher compared to much higher leagues. That is because those refs have been there and got the T- shirt. They then pass on their experiences to the refs coming up the ranks. You cannot train a referee in a class room, the role is highly based on practice, its an on the job training role.

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Is there another sport these guys can play where they can use abusive and offending language as often and as loud as they like ?

Just been on Wikipedia and could not find a single game (apart from adult board games at Xmas) where it is widely accepted.

So why do some local experts on football consider it acceptable in ECFL ?

Why would anybody take their kids to a game and listen to that ? No matter how shocking the quality of refereeing or the football, players, fans and coaches should not be hurling abuse at other people.

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its not about how good refs are they have bad days they have good days.Refs wil make calls on fouls offsides etc and get some right and some wrong which will happen but every ref should no before the game what they will do about swearing if they all done the same there would be no problem its not about decision making when it comes to swearing accept it or don't but just all do same so we all know

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jefferson hog, are you telling me that players/managers/club officials do not know where they stand on the use of foul/offensive/abusive language on the football field. I will put it simply, they stand a very good chance of being shown a red card.

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I still say its the Law of Common Sense which is not being applied. We know we don't want swearing in the game but life has moved on it is unfortunately a fact of life. As I said it is common sense that has gone out of the window. If the FA has forwarded this email then you can kick football goodbye. You only have to lip read players on the TV to know that referees are not taking any notice of it. In the vast majority of cases an expletive is used as an instant reaction to an incident. Any referee who then uses the laws against that person is showing weakness and takes the easy option. As I said if this was brought in for every game then there would be no game. This has been an interesting topic and you can see that the referees have lined up to tell us what the Laws of the game are. Nobody seems to use the words COMMON SENSE.

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Football is essentially a middle class working man's game where 'industrial language' is all too commonplace.

As such, regardless of whether it is in the laws of the game or not, most referees apply common sense with regards to it's usage, unless of course it is directed towards them or is offensive to spectators (particularly any women and children).

With regard to foul language that is heard over distance, I remember twice whilst I was manager at Bere Alston where this went against us on both occasions (with the same referee in both cases too)

One the first occasion we were drawing 0-0 at home to Torpoint Athletic and in the ascendancy when it appeared that Dan Pethick had been hauled to the ground on the edge of the penalty area by Darren Wills (but wasn't given as a foul), Westy let Al Johns know in no uncertain terms what he felt (swear words and all)....As a result, Torpoint were awarded a free kick on the edge of our penalty area instead, which they scored from and went on to win the game 2-0 (no red or yellow card issued I might add)

On the second occasion (in the same season) we were (ironically) playing at St Dominick where on this occasion Westy (again) played the ball up the line (from LB) and lambasted Mike Curtis for not chasing it (once again swear words and all).....Low and behold Al Johns (again), gave St Dominick a free kick on the edge of our box which James Crawford stuck in the top corner....again no cards for Westy.

In similar vein to yesterday, Al then sent me from the ground for over stepping the mark when remonstrating with him about the decision at half time.

With hindsight, on both occasions, by the letter of the law, Al rightly gave the free kicks against us (although I didn't agree at the time I might add), but also showed common sense on both occasions by keeping his cards in his pocket.

There was also a referee around at the time (not sure if he's retired now) called Phil Voltz (?), who used to take an extremely hard line on foul language but used to let both team know before hand; subsequently the level of foul language when he refereed was a lot lower than normal.

I do recall him sending off three Tavy players at Bude one year all for foul language (two during the game and one after the final whistle).

Unfortunately, most players (and managers) don't know the 'full' laws of the game, particularly with regard to foul language (most of them struggle with the offside laws!!), which is probably a reason why most referees apply a degree of common sense in most cases.

Over time you get used to which referees will allow the game to flow and will allow the odd tackle here and there. You also know which ones are 'hard liners' or in some cases arrogant and aloof.

Law of averages, the better referees get the most respect and the ones who it would appear, on too many occasions are not up to scratch, tend to get the most abuse.

The more down to earth refs will be approachable before a game and at half time or will come into the dressing room and give you an indication of what to expect during the 90 minutes.

Those that don't tend to be the ones that are wildly inconsistent and can't be spoken to and unsurprisingly are the ones that also tend to show a greater number of red and yellow cards (an awful lot of which could easily be avoided).

Common sense works both ways and if teams know in advance that a referee is going to take a hard line on foul and abusive language and are likely to issue cards then I'm sure 'most' teams will kerb their language and make for a better game.

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So what happens when a player appeals and the ref tells us to f**k off and get on with it there just as bad as us with swearing anyway

Then you report him/her to the county as they have no right to swear at a player in any circumstances. I fully understand that players will use foul language when they are frustrated so then its down to the ref to make up his mind if its bad enough to deal with a card or a talking to . All I said was that swearing loud enough to be heard 40 yards away so people watching must of heard it . In my opinion was a sending off, so what do you do deal with it and your over zealous not using common sense , not dealing with it and then being reported by someone in the crowd for not dealing with it , ( rock and a hard place ) comes to mind. . Swearing has become a problem in society today , yes I swear sometimes , but I can honestly say that for 90 minutes on a Saturday while refereeing I will not swear and believe me I get frustrated , I my self watch a lot of rugby either live on tv or live at matches and you don`t hear them f ing and Jeffing at every tom **** or harry let alone the ref, so it not really required in football is it . does this show that its gone to far now its like a cancer that has taken hold, so there is no cure . I sure if every referee dealt with it the same way like Jefferson hog wants and sent every one off then we as refs would all be criticised on here for ruining the game so we all use common sense and ignore it and let player swear left right and centre then I`m sure it will not be long till you all be moaning on this forum about not having any refs on a Saturday . Maybe we should let the ref do his / her job and you as players help by thinking before you say anything and then the issue of swearing might just go away . I know deep in my heart that players will never agree with what is said on here about referee`s and the way they deal with things so as far as I`m concerned this is my opinion like it or not.

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not a criticism Martin as I said we all have our on ways to manage players what works is the right way to go and with both done very well so far mate with our methods , so if it ain`t broke lets ignore this lot and keep on doing it well bud the tea is on me next time oh would you want a doughnut too mate ha ha .

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I've played in a fair few games in my time and nobody has ever been sent off for swearing in frustration or swearing at an opponent (normally the opponent has just done something stupid)

Only red cards I've witnessed for swearing is for swearing against match officials.

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jefferson hog, please help me , was that comment supposed to be witty banter !, I referee to the latest LOAF as issued each season so how thats supposed to be quote " the dark ages" ?.

PS have you seen me referee, most probably not.

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I'm neither a referee or player, but I'm a lover of football, surely everybody having their views ( however different they are, or whether they're right or wrong ) is what makes the game we all love, as interesting as it is. As already mentioned there are a lack of referees at the moment, which is leading games to be called off, which nobody wants, so coming on here slating refs is only gonna drive them away causing more games to be called off.

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jefferson hog, please help me , was that comment supposed to be witty banter !, I referee to the latest LOAF as issued each season so how thats supposed to be quote " the dark ages" ?.

PS have you seen me referee, most probably not.

I can assure you Paul (aka B Manning) that Jefferson Hog has seen you referee and been on the receiving end of some of your more dubious decisions.

That was before you came off the ECPL list of referees.

I will say though that you were one to apply the letter of the law of to it's full in most cases, apart from the Saturday after you sent off all those Tintagel players at Queens Rangers, when you referee'd Bere Alston at Probus and (as you said at the time) did your best to keep your cards in your pocket, which gave Probus license to kick lumps out of the Bere players all afternoon.

Not that the Bere side back then needed much protection, but one or two red cards should have gone Probus' way that day.

All in all, 99% of refs deserve respect for doing the job in the first place and like most players (and managers) some are better than others and one or two are awful.....Wouldn't have a game without them though.

One's I don't have time for are the blatantly biased ones (and Yes, there are the odd few).

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I still say its the Law of Common Sense which is not being applied. We know we don't want swearing in the game but life has moved on it is unfortunately a fact of life. As I said it is common sense that has gone out of the window. If the FA has forwarded this email then you can kick football goodbye. You only have to lip read players on the TV to know that referees are not taking any notice of it. In the vast majority of cases an expletive is used as an instant reaction to an incident. Any referee who then uses the laws against that person is showing weakness and takes the easy option. As I said if this was brought in for every game then there would be no game. This has been an interesting topic and you can see that the referees have lined up to tell us what the Laws of the game are. Nobody seems to use the words COMMON SENSE.

Allowing swearing aloud at other people because it is "unfortunately a fact of life" is in no way shape or form using the Law of common Sense just because it currently suits you when it's a player that you particularly like.

"Any referee who then uses the Law against that person is showing weakness" .

For crying out loud, give that poor old fella in black an outside chance of reffing a game that you would approve of !!!!

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Football is essentially a middle class working man's game where 'industrial language' is all too commonplace.

As such, regardless of whether it is in the laws of the game or not, most referees apply common sense with regards to it's usage, unless of course it is directed towards them or is offensive to spectators (particularly any women and children).

With regard to foul language that is heard over distance, I remember twice whilst I was manager at Bere Alston where this went against us on both occasions (with the same referee in both cases too)

One the first occasion we were drawing 0-0 at home to Torpoint Athletic and in the ascendancy when it appeared that Dan Pethick had been hauled to the ground on the edge of the penalty area by Darren Wills (but wasn't given as a foul), Westy let Al Johns know in no uncertain terms what he felt (swear words and all)....As a result, Torpoint were awarded a free kick on the edge of our penalty area instead, which they scored from and went on to win the game 2-0 (no red or yellow card issued I might add)

On the second occasion (in the same season) we were (ironically) playing at St Dominick where on this occasion Westy (again) played the ball up the line (from LB) and lambasted Mike Curtis for not chasing it (once again swear words and all).....Low and behold Al Johns (again), gave St Dominick a free kick on the edge of our box which James Crawford stuck in the top corner....again no cards for Westy.

In similar vein to yesterday, Al then sent me from the ground for over stepping the mark when remonstrating with him about the decision at half time.

With hindsight, on both occasions, by the letter of the law, Al rightly gave the free kicks against us (although I didn't agree at the time I might add), but also showed common sense on both occasions by keeping his cards in his pocket.

There was also a referee around at the time (not sure if he's retired now) called Phil Voltz (?), who used to take an extremely hard line on foul language but used to let both team know before hand; subsequently the level of foul language when he refereed was a lot lower than normal.

I do recall him sending off three Tavy players at Bude one year all for foul language (two during the game and one after the final whistle).

Unfortunately, most players (and managers) don't know the 'full' laws of the game, particularly with regard to foul language (most of them struggle with the offside laws!!), which is probably a reason why most referees apply a degree of common sense in most cases.

Over time you get used to which referees will allow the game to flow and will allow the odd tackle here and there. You also know which ones are 'hard liners' or in some cases arrogant and aloof.

Law of averages, the better referees get the most respect and the ones who it would appear, on too many occasions are not up to scratch, tend to get the most abuse.

The more down to earth refs will be approachable before a game and at half time or will come into the dressing room and give you an indication of what to expect during the 90 minutes.

Those that don't tend to be the ones that are wildly inconsistent and can't be spoken to and unsurprisingly are the ones that also tend to show a greater number of red and yellow cards (an awful lot of which could easily be avoided).

Common sense works both ways and if teams know in advance that a referee is going to take a hard line on foul and abusive language and are likely to issue cards then I'm sure 'most' teams will kerb their language and make for a better game.

Ha Ha at least I was consistant ! Joking aside if a player uses bad language and it is loud and not abusive to me I do give a free kick. This helps stamp out any further bad language as I find the offending players team mates tell the player to shut up and learn their lesson. If I was playing, swore, and conceeded a goal from the resulting free kick I think I would shut up. PS Happy new year Kev, I still think you need a joint manager.

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CoachKT I have to agree with you when you say the majority of referees who have the respect of the players tend to be the ones who manage a game in a sensible manner, granted they don't always apply the laws of the game but in my opinion they are there to aide referees not for referees to stick to, and before anyone says that's when inconsistency comes into the game with one ref allowing one thing and another something else, that's what life is all about, in differences are always going to be there, and the best refs are the ones who have a bit of common sense along with some curtisy, something which goes a miss with many refs when they fail to explain some major decisions, not at every opportunity but once in a while will gain respect from players.

Mr b manning I presume you are Paul......?? Murphy or butler??

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Like I said its down to the interpretation of law. All refs do this in different ways which is why there is inconsistencies. There is no right or wrong way to interpret the laws and the FA has only given guidelines to assist us in interpreting the laws. There is also discretion which means we can use other options, within the scope of the law, to come to an alternative cause action. There needs to be flexibility in the application of the laws (by using discretion on common sense) which will lead to consistencies but that's football (and life). Situations may appear similar to each other but the circumstances leading up to them makes them totally different.

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