Duchy League hits rock bottom

[bentekkers]

Yesterday I was involved in a game between afc bodmin and st minver that was beyond ridiculous. Our secretary (afc) was notified in the week that the referee we were meant to have was unable to officiate due to an injury. The league was aware of this and up until 11 o clock Saturday morning we were unaware whether the game was on or off. An email was then received stating that they had found a ref and we would have to play the game, no apology for the delay or anything. In arriving at the pitch we were made aware of who the ref was and was astonished to find out that it was st minver's ex manager. At the start of the season he was there manager when we played them and I am led to believe he has since left the post. Not only is he the ex manager and obviously knows all of the players very well but his son was playing in the game. He had no kit and was just dressed normally, no linesman flags or anything and he must have been out the night before as he smelt of alcohol. Now before this game kicks off its fair to say that it will not be a level playing field, this is not st minvers fault but it is obvious it wont be. My annoyance is not with st minver nor really with the ref but the league for allowing and arranging this situation. He was not a referee he had zero control of the game and with this being the case throughout the game you could hear cries of 'go through him' based on the fact that players had decided to take the law into their own hands as the referee was never going too. With this being the case there would be nothing to stop someone seriously injuring another player based on the fact that they are angry that decisions are being missed and think well to hell with it I'm going to crunch this player. As I have said before it wasn't st minvers fault, but if too teams are playing a league game and they both are pushing for promotion you expect a fair crack at it. Now I read on here all the time about people saying get off refs backs and there is a lack of refs and without them we couldn't play and all of this is true. I do however feel that nobody forces people to ref and if they don't want to to do it then they don't have too. And if the league have a shortage of refs then why are they happy to sign all these teams up at the start of the season take money of them for doing it for both leagues and cups, and then say oh but there is a shortage of refs. The game yesterday should never have gone ahead in the first place and should have been cancelled and rearranged, in junior football everyone pays subs to play and gives up their afternoon to play a competitive game of football on a level playing field. If the league cannot provide this due to a shortage then don't create so many divisions with teams in them if they cannot complete the fixtures. Yesterday was just a glorified friendly and to say the situation was farcical would be an understatement.

[B Manning]

bentekkers, it`s not the leagues fault either, you need to take a long look at yourselves for the ongoing referee shortage, you should be pleased that someone volunteered to referee so a game could be played. I can assure you it`s not easy refereeing a game with your son playing ( i know only to well from having done that myself in the distant past ) So instead of whinging on have the guts to do something about it and take the courses that are being offered. Remember people put themselves out to get the game on for you perhaps next time they wont bother and you can go without a game.

[fizzer]

B.manning I quite agree with your post. I suggest Mr Seymour and his dreggs take a weekends course on respect for starters then . place them on a mandatory referee course.perhaps the answer to the ref shortage could be sorted by placing players or club officials on misconduct charges on a referee course instead of suspensions say a two month stint that's 7/8 games .if not completed the suspension then comes back in force.

I also know simmo 147 was a qualified ref as on the same course.so i think a big thanks should go to keith for doing a favour for both clubs.

[AVFC4]

I understand Bentekers frustration (love the name BTW!) Had it been the othet way around I would have been concerned.

However, Keith did this for free and at extremely short notice. He was contacted whilst enjoying an early afternoon pint and immediately obliged.

The flag and kit situation is not his fault nor his responsibility at this short notice in my eyes.

Of course there were past allegiances but Keith is always fair and is known for being particularly harsh when reffing his sons. Both teams were treated equally and in the end felt we deserved the 3 points.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Well benteckers - I agree with you. That's a bad decision by the administrators.

[cornish leg end]

Keith simmons is an alcohilic was turning up to st merryn games stinking great example to set to the youngsters. Game should never have gone ahead!

[AVFC4]

That last post is needless and potentially harmful and should be removed.

[Brianmooreshead]

B Manning, your oh so predictable response is sad really. Take off the spectacles with which you view every comment only through the eyes of the bloody ref !

Yes there's a shortage of refs, whilst that's not the Leagues fault, they don't help by continuing to allow new teams to enter when they know there aren't going to be enough match officials.

Yes, the players in general don't help themselves with their treatment of the officials that we do have. Some of what we read on hear is valid criticism, most is just sour grapes.

But taking this case solely on it's merits - Do you, hand on heart, think that a volunteer official, a former manager of one of the participating clubs, who's son is playing for that same club is going to be a sensible, and more importantly an impartial choice for a game of football. If so my friend I think you're in the minority

[sam j williams]

I do believe that our secretary called AFC Bodmin before the game and said we have a volunteer who would happily ref. He told him who it was to which the guy at Bodmin replied "oh Keith, yes I know Keith, yes that's fine". It was either have no game or have the volunteer. No one ever forces a team to play when there is not an official in place and it's the choice of both teams to go ahead.

[Mangle]

If an email was received at 11am informing afc that the game was on and that a referee had been found, how was this guy supposed to have been enjoying "an early afternoon pint"? Surely contact would have been made with the "ref" some time earlier than the email being sent, so a "mid-morning pint" perhaps?

Not good.

[sam j williams]

It was AFC Bodmin playing at home, St Minver being the away team. It was AFC who would have to confirm if the game was on or off. When we found out there was no ref, the suggestion of Keith to ref the game was put forward to the home team who accepted. I don't see a problem, you can't go ahead and play knowing who the ref is and then complain afterwards! You should have just not played.

[Brianmooreshead]

That's a fair point Sam

[AVFC4]

That is correct Sam.

What someone does on what is percieved to be a free Saturday from footballing duties is nobodys business, therefore, no one person should be passing judgemet in what is 'good' or not.

[Premier Sixes]

Both teams need to agree on the volunteer ref, once this has been done it is pretty much the same for both teams. We had no ref for our game vs St Breward. I said I would ref it if it came to it. The St Breward manager declined the offer as he didn't think it would be fair on his team, fortunately a ref was appointed at 11.30am on the Saturday as another game had been called off. Paul Murphy does his very best on a Saturday morning to get refs re-allocated asap as soon as games are cancelled. The full time system used to appoint refs to games, logs the appointed official as TBA all week until such point somebody can do the game. If there isn't anyone the system is told NO REF and the game is postponed (this is usually about midday Saturday when all options have been exhausted), in the case of Keith, it was logged as LOCAL REF as one of the sides had managed to find someone to step in, therefore the game goes ahead and any officials who then become available can be put on another game that hasn't got a ref.

The main problem is there just aren't as many refs as there used to be and as previously mentioned by Duchy secretary Mike Newcombe ALL junior football gets the raw deal as we are at the bottom end of the ladder.

Two refs off the top of my head who now no longer reffing Duchy are Tim Topham (Grampound manager) and Dave 'Devil' Osbourne (Retired)

[B Manning]

Brianmooreshead, i was not predictably looking at it from the eyes of a ref, my basic point was that someone went to the trouble of arranging a replacement official so the game could go ahead, this was obviously agreed to by both clubs and then what happens, bentekkers comes on this forum dong nothing but whinge, so i think you need to take another look at my post and reassess the point I was trying to put over.

PS to Dan, I no longer referee on the Duchy League.

[Brianmooreshead]

AVFC4 - Not sure what you're talking about unfortunately

Bentekkers stated that Bodmin only discovered who the ref was when they arrived at the ground. Subsequent postings would appear to dispute this.

Sam says that the offer of the stand in was put to the home side and they agreed. If that's the case then Bodmin really don't have an argument

I certainly wouldn't have accepted this scenario ,and would have waited to play the game at another time with an appointed neutral official. I just don't see how someone who ran a team earlier this season and with his son playing for that team, can, ( with the best will in the world ) be impartial

Nobodys saying if the situation is good or bad - I'm just giving you my opinion - If you don't agree then that's fair enough

[Premier Sixes]

The Duchy league is down 4 teams on last season. 3 were promoted to the ECL (St Austell, Mevagissey, Fowey united), one pulled out pre season (Gunnislake reserves) and 3 have withdrawn since the start of the season (Probus, Bodmin Saints and St Columb Reserves). Only High Street and Godolphin 3rds have entered the league as new teams and St Stephen were relegated from the ECL, so the problem is not with teams entering the league.

[AVFC4]

I didnt like the gestures towards acloholism on a football forum, that was all.

[Brianmooreshead]

I understand - And I fully agree

[Dave Deacon]

I have been asked to post this reply on behalf of the Duchy League:-

The League was aware that the AFC Bodmin v St.Minver match was one of many on Saturday without a match referee.

At no time did either club contact me to discuss using a mutually agreed official. Furthermore no instruction was issued by the Duchy League that the game had to go ahead with the gentleman that volunteered to take the game.

League rules allow clubs to mutually agree an individual to take the game in the absence of an appointed referee. This appears to be what happened in this match. Two other matches were also played last Saturday in similar circumstances. In both of those cases the clubs involved informed me of the situation and the agreement of the parties.

I repeat I had no knowledge of the AFC Bodmin v St.Minver situation until the result was rung in and I asked the caller who had refereed the game.

Unfortunately from time to time the forum has ill-informed people making ridiculous statements over items that they have no full knowledge of. Whether this person will see fit to apologise, time will tell, but players and managers need to understand that the current referee shortage is ongoing. The Junior league’s will be the ones to suffer and some games will have to go ahead with unofficial referee’s to complete the season. In all cases these will be mutually agreed between the clubs. There will be no pressure from me or anyone in this League.

Mike Newcombe

Hon Secretary

Duchy League

[bentekkers]

As stated at the start of my post I have nothing against St Minver nor the bloke who refereed the game. I am also not apologising for my comments as they are stating the situation that arose. It cannot be correct to be left in limbo until after 11 on a Saturday morning as to whether the game is off or on. A lot of our players travel to play for us and not only that give up there Saturday afternoon to play a competitive game of football. Now if the result is being put through as a result with an unofficial ref then where do you draw the line? what's the point in having promotions and relegations? We play on a Saturday in a league format so that if you are good enough by the end of the season you get promoted so as a team you reach a point where your are playing competitive matches every week and are able to attract better players who will play in higher divisions. Games get cancelled all the time because the pitch is not suitable to be played on, this should be the same with not having a ref. Missing a week of football because there is no referee is fine, its not ideal but that's life. There cannot have been a huge decline in referees all of a sudden that the league cannot complete there fixtures. If they knew this at the start of the season then a structure should have been put in place so that the allocation of volunteer refs will not occur, furthermore as premier sixes has stated teams have dropped out aswell so the league is down if anything on the numbers of teams they had at the start of the season. A number of teams throughout the duchy leagues are just a small village team who have managed to conjure up a team of players that are managed by a player who doesn't want the team to fold and will keep it running as long as the players chip in with payment and assistance with the running of the club. Not everyone has a support structure of being a reserve team to a senior club or having 3 or 4 teams through Cornish football. So in signing up at the start of the season and paying money to cover the cost of entering the league, I feel the players should have the right to play a game with an appropriate referee. No sour grapes with the result, st minver are a group of mates who have dropped down a few leagues to play together and want to get promoted, good luck to them. Not really a problem with the referee as a bloke neither, I just think something has to be done and if it means cancelling games because there isn't a ref to officiate then so be it and if that means that a lot of games get cancelled throughout the year then in my eyes the maths doesn't add up and there are too many teams in the duchy leagues.

[Soccer Follower]

What was the result of the match?

[morcs]

The Duchy league is down 4 teams on last season. 3 were promoted to the ECL (St Austell, Mevagissey, Fowey united), one pulled out pre season (Gunnislake reserves) and 3 have withdrawn since the start of the season (Probus, Bodmin Saints and St Columb Reserves). Only High Street and Godolphin 3rds have entered the league as new teams and St Stephen were relegated from the ECL, so the problem is not with teams entering the league.

Will there be any referee shortages affectng the Junior Cup ties this weekend mate?

[B Manning]

bentekkers, as both teams agreed to play with a replacement referee, then during that match he had all the powers of an official referee therefore any result stands. As I said in an earlier post there is a shortage of referee`s and teams and players need to take a close look at what is happening and as to why. If you do not wish to play the games then that is your choice, but the situation is only going to get worse before we see any improvement in referee numbers.

Morcs, there will not be any shortages in the Junior Cup as it takes precedent over League matches

[morcs]

B Manning - thanks for confirming that.

[B Manning]

simmo147, congratulations for having the balls to volunteer to do the game, you did do your best and you did do both clubs a favour, that first post was well out of order,

[ontheball]

I cant understand why it is that sometimes a Duchy premier or first division match has to get cancelled due to no referee, yet on the same day there are referees on duty in division 5. I would have though higher division matches should take preference over the bottom division. Just as higher leagues do over Duchy. Harsh on division 5 I know but maybe the best way. IT does sound as though their are too many divisions/teams for the number of referees these days.

[bluestorm]

Bentekkers, read the Duchy league secretary's statement, there was no email sent to your club saying you had to play the game with this ref.He did not know the game went ahead untill the result was sent in.How can you blame the league when it was your club that agreed to play the game?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

It was AFC Bodmin playing at home, St Minver being the away team. It was AFC who would have to confirm if the game was on or off. When we found out there was no ref, the suggestion of Keith to ref the game was put forward to the home team who accepted. I don't see a problem, you can't go ahead and play knowing who the ref is and then complain afterwards! You should have just not played.

Ah well, there's another side to the story - let this one die now I say. End of.