Foul language

[Home Waters]

Are you still a club official HomeWaters ?

I am as much an official as you are a sports reporter

[PUGWASH]

x x

[middle mans mate]

Perhaps a match official on this site can give an answer - Steve Bruce, Hull Manager, reported to the FA for saying " It's a Joke" , when asked on TV interview his view on the penalty award.

If one of our Managers said that on Radio Cornwall or it was written as quotes in a newspaper - would they be done.

How can verbal abuse at our level, which is aimed at Match Officials not be reported - don't get it.

Last season at the end of a game, I shook the referees hand, thanked him, and said "I thought you spoilt a good game ref". For this "dissent" I was fined £50 by the CCFA

[PUGWASH]

Now I dont think that is fair.

[isaac rosenberg]

Got on my bike long ago, Keith, but am unlikely to echo Norman Tebbitt approvingly.....I was fortunate in that life chances enabled me to do so.

Having spent most of my professional life trying to reach the almost-unreachable, I think I've demonstrated the distance between anarchism and nihilism. I maintain that this fuss about swearing obscures much more important questions which we should be debating, most of them intrinsically political.

The sad spectacle of the administrators of the good working class game trying to curry favour with the pseudo-bourgeois parvenus who currently fail to govern us reflects the same traducing of proletarian values that has characterised Cornwall since the abdication of the Stannary Parliament.

Pugwash, your blatantly hierarchical and undemocratic denial of nautical self-determination to your oppressed sea-serfs Albert and Harold shows that you are part of the reactionary vanguard of class enmity. I would therefore not expect you to understand me.

I encourage all footballers to carry on swearing at will. Do not let the fawning hounds of imperialism diminish your authentic voices !

[hoppit]

Perhaps a match official on this site can give an answer - Steve Bruce, Hull Manager, reported to the FA for saying " It's a Joke" , when asked on TV interview his view on the penalty award.

If one of our Managers said that on Radio Cornwall or it was written as quotes in a newspaper - would they be done.

How can verbal abuse at our level, which is aimed at Match Officials not be reported - don't get it.

Last season at the end of a game, I shook the referees hand, thanked him, and said "I thought you spoilt a good game ref". For this "dissent" I was fined £50 by the CCFA

Maybe the fine will teach you to keep your opinions to yourself. Just because you thought he spoiled the game doesn't mean you were right. Well done the ref correct decision.

[Leigh Cooper]

Equally disappointing is that, for the second time this season, we were victims of another set of officials who didn't deal with clear cut breaches of the rules. How a certain player stayed on the pitch the other night is beyond me! The same players with the 'big' reputations are getting away with murder week in week out. Raising their arms, blatant use of the elbow, constant swearing and pointing 'at' the referee all seems to be 'allowed' as these guys have a reputation for it. NO it is NOT acceptable and referee's and their assistants should be man enough to deal with these same players. I never want to see a player get sent off but why should Tony and myself preach discipline, respect and a 'don't get involved in trouble' attitude when there never seems to be any consequence if you don't show these qualities. When I see officials worrying over does the tape on the socks meet regulations
but ignore a blatant elbow in the face or constantly being sworn at for the whole 90 minutes by the same individual it drives me nuts!. Man up referees!!! Allow your assistants to make decisions and help you throughout the 90 minutes, surely you 3 are a team after all?

Put this in my programme notes a few weeks ago and it still seems relevant judging by this thread. I can not, for the life of me, understand why a referee wouldn't want his assistants to help him throughout the 90 minutes. As I see it there are 3 teams on the pitch, the 2 sides and the match officials but all too often I see the referee in charge and his assistants sitting on the fence because they have been 'instructed' by the man in the middle as to what their involvement should be in the game. It's crazy! As a manager I want decisive decision making by all 3 of the men/women in black and I want serious foul play punished (whichever the side is and whichever they player is), is that too much to ask?

[hoppit]

Equally disappointing is that, for the second time this season, we were victims of another set of officials who didn't deal with clear cut breaches of the rules. How a certain player stayed on the pitch the other night is beyond me! The same players with the 'big' reputations are getting away with murder week in week out. Raising their arms, blatant use of the elbow, constant swearing and pointing 'at' the referee all seems to be 'allowed' as these guys have a reputation for it. NO it is NOT acceptable and referee's and their assistants should be man enough to deal with these same players. I never want to see a player get sent off but why should Tony and myself preach discipline, respect and a 'don't get involved in trouble' attitude when there never seems to be any consequence if you don't show these qualities. When I see officials worrying over does the tape on the socks meet regulations

but ignore a blatant elbow in the face or constantly being sworn at for the whole 90 minutes by the same individual it drives me nuts!. Man up referees!!! Allow your assistants to make decisions and help you throughout the 90 minutes, surely you 3 are a team after all?

Put this in my programme notes a few weeks ago and it still seems relevant judging by this thread. I can not, for the life of me, understand why a referee wouldn't want his assistants to help him throughout the 90 minutes. As I see it are 3 teams on the pitch, the 2 sides and the match officials but all too often I see the referee in charge and his assistants sitting on the fence because they have been 'instructed' by the man in the middle as to what their involvement should be in the game. It's crazy! As a manager I want decisive decision making by all 3 of the men/women in black and I want serious foul play punished (whichever the side is and whichever they player is), is that too much to ask?

Of all the posts on here this has to be the best and most sensible I have ever read from a person who knows the game inside out. This post should be displayed in every committee room every changing room and every match officials room in the country.

[Lafs]

Well summed up Coops. Perhaps now we may hear from the Referees posting on this topic why referees choose to do this.

[hoppit]

Well summed up Coops. Perhaps now we may hear from the Referees posting on this topic why referees choose to do this.

Just bad reffing lafs, lots do it right some do it wrong.

[Leigh Cooper]

In all fairness those notes could have followed 3 or 4 games this season, hence my decision to post something. Just looking for a way where all clubs (and players) get treated exactly the same week in week out, nothing more, nothing less. It should be simple but this thread clearly shows it's not.

[mrlaw18]

Mr Cooper I like your post. But as a referee I have to say that as an AR/Ref we can only give what we see. I understand that things happen which are clearly infringements from your angles but from our view it may look different. If we see things from were you are standing then things may be different. People may say that this is a 'typical ref' answerer but I'm afraid that is how it is. When we don't make a decision its because we don't know what happen even though we know something has happened. Its all about the facts we receive at that moment I time.

[Lafs]

Mrlaw18, I think Leigh and the rest of us appreciate that you officials only give what you see. What we don't understand is why we are told by assistants that they are not allowed to raise their flags when/if they see anything due to the referee telling them not to!

Secondly, as Leigh states rather well and probably very candidly, there appear to be certain reoffenders who constantly seem to get away with the same foul play and/or foul language week in week out depending on their reputation, club, history etc.

[The Villains]

Mrlaw18, I think Leigh and the rest of us appreciate that you officials only give what you see. What we don't understand is why we are told by assistants that they are not allowed to raise their flags when/if they see anything due to the referee telling them not to!

Secondly, as Leigh states rather well and probably very candidly, there appear to be certain reoffenders who constantly seem to get away with the same foul play and/or foul language week in week out depending on their reputation, club, history etc.

We all know that the assistant refs are there to assist the man in the middle, as stated by Mrlaw18, the ref can only give what he has seen...... However, is that not what the assistants are there for, to help him see the things that he didn't see himself? All 3 officials are qualified refs in there own right. If the ref decides not to act on the assistants advice, then that's his choice, the only time I would not stop play is if there is an advantage to the non offending team. As far as I know its normally Sunday morning football, that's briefed to only give in/out and offsides decisions, all other calls are down to the referee.

[Argyle Fan]

Mr Cooper I like your post. But as a referee I have to say that as an AR/Ref we can only give what we see. I understand that things happen which are clearly infringements from your angles but from our view it may look different. If we see things from were you are standing then things may be different. People may say that this is a 'typical ref' answerer but I'm afraid that is how it is. When we don't make a decision its because we don't know what happen even though we know something has happened. Its all about the facts we receive at that moment I time.

Fair enough about only giving what you see but most of the abuse is verbal and at high volume.

If those of us watching can clearly hear what is being yelled - as probably can those in the next parish - why do officials rarely take action?

[B Manning]

An experienced referee not only hears the language but also needs to see it spoken, the worst thing you can do is hear the language send off the player who you thought said it and you have got the wrong person( this happens to inexperienced referee`s I can vouch for that) . If it is directed at me or anyone else and is meant (not just frustration) I use the red card, but I then have to put up with the grief I get for allegedly ruining the game. So a referee cannot win and the answer is in your hands.

[Dave Deacon]

An experienced referee not only hears the language but also needs to see it spoken, the worst thing you can do is hear the language send off the player who you thought said it and you have got the wrong person( this happens to inexperienced referee`s I can vouch for that) . If it is directed at me or anyone else and is meant (not just frustration) I use the red card, but I then have to put up with the grief I get for allegedly ruining the game. So a referee cannot win and the answer is in your hands.

Many a game I have been standing right behind an assistant referee five yards or so away from the pitch, a player is the same distance from him on the pitch and directs a comment containing foul language at him - I see, hear and know which player it was - the assistant ignores him - sorry B Manning no excuse for the assistant to do nothing about him!

[B Manning]

No Dave I agree with you, I would expect any assistant of mine if foul language is directed at him to bring that to my attention and I will take action, also keep in mind quite a few assistants are inexperienced so maybe reticent in calling over the referee. My instruction to my assistants always was and is, if you have problems try and deal with them if not call me over and I will and have done, only recently I yellow carded a player for shouting his disagreement to one of my club assistants.

[isaac rosenberg]

Monty is quite right that linguistic developments lie outside the power of football authorities to change. Whether your sympathies lie with prescriptivist or descriptivist schools of thought, the English language resists all attempts to direct its development; and always has done.

The earlier distinction between types of swearing was interesting. Whether all referees are already sufficiently proficient in clause analysis to make it, I doubt. I can see an opportunity for income generation here and would be glad to run training courses in morphology and syntax for CRAB, in exchange for a suitable consultancy fee.

The red card for swearing suggested by Mr Manning would surely lead to as few as seven a side if applied consistently. Once that stage had been reached, surely any sagacious manager would merely advise remaining players to direct a suitable noun to Mr Manning in order to ensure abandonment with the points intact.

[B Manning]

Rodney, any slight chance that you could writ your words so that poor morons like myself could understand it ?

[Dave Deacon]

Lee - believe it or not its not a witchhunt against refs.

Just been speaking to a League Chairman who has a good point : clubs can't complain too much when they can't be bothered to send in a report by marking the ref just above the required figure!

[The Villains]

Lee - believe it or not its not a witchhunt against refs.

Just been speaking to a League Chairman who has a good point : clubs can't complain too much when they can't be bothered to send in a report by marking the ref just above the required figure!

Clubs should be fined for not sending in the correct paperwork!

[PUGWASH]

Ah the point thing again. lol.

[PUGWASH]

That could be the same as the losing team thinking you were poor too. The winning team on a high and give you a 7 or a 70. I think the refs scores should be evaluated on assessment only. This would take the bias out of the equation.

[Leigh Cooper]

Sorry 'Monty' or 'B Manning' I have know idea who you are. But if you want a suggestion to improve things? Just get every referee to watch big George or Lee Roberts as early as possible in the season and then let those two guys give some feedback to the watching officials after the game. What could be better advice than two referees, who are setting the standard week in week out as I see it. I know there are others that are doing well but these two seem, to me, to be the standard bearers at the moment. Believe it or not most managers want to raise standards and get more enjoyment out of the game rather than giving officials a hard time.

I have been suggesting an 'informal' meeting, over a pint, between officials and management teams during pre-season (at a totally central league clubhouse just to discuss the in's and out's of the game) for a while now but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. I am sure it would help both sides, just getting an idea where we each are coming from but for some reason the men in black seem to 'shy' away from the idea. Any other suggestion's greatfully received!

[isaac rosenberg]

Mr Manning ! Wot I sed wuz that nobody can control how other b"""""s talk, especially English teechurs ; and that if you send off four players for swearing, a fifth will probably join them and get the game abandoned. Is that really what anybody wants ?

That is why this thread is so much hot air !

Woss all this about 7/10 for referees ? When I was a club secretary I used to give them 10/10 if they cost us nothing. I remember the days of refereeing appointments under Larry Marsh and Alan Wallace ! Was merit EVER a criterion for anything in that world ?

[B Manning]

Thats better Rod, i knows like wot you spoke na.

[kelvin hunkin]

Lee you do referee honestly and like every manager and player will make the occasional mistake.This thread is not about refereeing mistakes but the inconsistencies between officials and the gulf at times between participants and officials in how seriously certain incidents are viewed.

The idea of getting together to informally share views is good and something mid cornwall referees used to and I thoroughly enjoyed attending.

[bighairydave]

Leigh Cooper I think the meeting thing is a great idea!

[B Manning]

Meetings sound like a good idea but !, when I was officiating up country this idea was tried at the start of several seasons, all clubs were invited to a RA meeting to discuss anything and everything, what happened i think we had only about two clubs turn up they were not interested.

[PUGWASH]

What an absolute load of rubbish.

I remember when the respect campaign was introduced and had to attend the meetings held by referee officials then. Nobody wanted to go and a lot did not turn up.

Rules are rules. Foul and abusive, language especially in a aggressive manner is a red card.

Not just refs , the team Management must take a good look at themselves. No need for it.

[shots]

The refs have total control over this matter, but until they have the b***s to carry out the law with ALL players and clubs things will carry on as it is forever.

As I've said before, I'm sure refs would gain loads of respect if only they used their powers for the benefit of the game and applied the rules, along with one thing they seem to leave in the clubhouse, COMMON SENSE.

[Bruegel the Elder]

Agree to some extent Shots, if a little harsh. Officials need support from Clubs, Leagues and Associations, if not always players! A Referee without support cuts a lonely figure.

Do Referees, get advice from above, on things to look out for? Racism, being a recent press preoccupation.

Does/can the C.C.F.A. send out a decree as to what is acceptable. Can/do they coordinate interpretation of the rules? I don't know, I'm not privy to their communications or know the extent of their power!

[The Villains]

It has been mentioned before....... Foul language to one referee may not be foul language to another referee, that's where it gets tricky, every referee has there own tolerance levels.

You can't always use the common sense option.

[B Manning]

Shot`s , have you the B***s to even become a referee I think not, but I can assure you I have the B***s to carryout and apply the LOAF correctly as every referee I know has and that includes all the grief and crap thrown at him for doing it.

[shots]

Well said B Manning. People become refs through choice and get paid and often fed for their services and probably know what they are going into. I have many friends who are refs at all levels and wouldnt do their job for all the tea in China, but then I dont choose to.

[BIG AL]

Get paid far too much. If I could earn this hourly rate I would ignore the insults 1

[Nemesis]

Does the FA provide a list of words that are deemed 'foul & abusive' ? If not, then we are expecting refs to apply LOAF that do not actually exist in principle. As someone pointed out, one Ref may take certain words as non offensive, whilst another will pull out a Red Card for a word or phrase that might seem tame.

[bighairydave]

Big Al what hourly rate do you think we have. By the time I include travelling, report writing, training and purchasing kit I'm down to around £3 an hour!!!

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Big Al what hourly rate do you think we have. By the time I include travelling, report writing, training and purchasing kit I'm down to around £3 an hour!!!

As he said - overpaid.

[PUGWASH]

Does the FA provide a list of words that are deemed 'foul & abusive' ? If not, then we are expecting refs to apply LOAF that do not actually exist in principle. As someone pointed out, one Ref may take certain words as non offensive, whilst another will pull out a Red Card for a word or phrase that might seem tame.

Nemesis , what a load of rubbish. If you look at the first few threads , the sentence that was used is bang out.

Not sure why everyone is getting to indepth on this.

[Voice from the past]

I have read the many postings on this thread with great interest, it is very clear that in most cases the language problem stems from either a sense of injustice or lack of consistency in decision making by the officals, which I find totally understandable it may upset a few officals but we may be putting the cart before the horse here, make the correct or more importanly consisent decisions and the majority of the bad language will evaporate, of course there will be examples of this without justification from players who are not articulate enought to express themselves without swearing but this happens in all walks of life not just in sport. I am not bashing officials but it is clear that many are being advanced far too quickly without sufficient experience of how to deal with difficult situations or even the ability to spot the difference between a malicious or mistimed challenge and don't tell me that all challenges should be treated the same there are players, and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to recognise them, who seem intent on intimidation at best and causing injury at worst. These seem to treated under the umbrella of, I was unsighted or I missed it. Officials have a responsibilty to enforce the laws of the game but I believe the greatest responsibility is to ensure the safety of the players, just consider this, swearing never caused an injury or stopped anyone going to work the next day, deal with the bad challenges and become more consistent and the swearing will decrease. To achieve this officials need to talk to people who know the game and learn from them not hide behind the uniform and live in the FA ivory tower. It is easy to recognise the officals who have posted on this thread and the I am always right and am very pleased with myself attitude shine like a beacon.

[PUGWASH]

So what about that politician who called a copper a phleb ? He got in big trouble.

Not quite a fu....g t..t, bas...., c... , wan... ! Was it.

Red card every time. Not acceptable. Does not happen in rugby or cricket.

[B Manning]

Voice from the past, I must apologise I completely forgot that it is the referee`s fault. Plus I am one of the officials who have posted on this thread, but have you ever seen me officiate, no ! so how on earth can you make sweeping statements like that.

[Voice from the past]

B. Manning how do you know I have not seen you in action? You don.t know me and I don.t know you but by the tone of your posts which I have read over a period of time I can make a fair guess as to how you see the game. I make my opinion of the way games go by over 18 years playing and managing at a decent level and about a further 8 years watching SWPL and above. I do not lay all the blame at the feet of officials but methinks you protest too much perhaps you would like to give me the benefit of your playing career.

[SteveG]

It has been mentioned before....... Foul language to one referee may not be foul language to another referee, that's where it gets tricky, every referee has there own tolerance levels.

You can't always use the common sense option.

Surely we all know what foul language is?

You know the sort of words we mean. They are the ones we wouldn't want to hear our children use.

[B Manning]

Certainly will vftp, played senior football and actually turned out for the first team on occasions ( although a reserve team player) and played at what would these days be the equal to Southern League, after finishing playing I took up the whistle ( I love the game ) , I have referee`d now for fourty years and reached the dizzy heights of two below Football League (now would be level 3) before age caught up with me and if you read some of my other posts you will see I have mentioned some of the teams I have officiated for. I hope that helps you decide on my ability to post my opinions.

[The Villains]

It has been mentioned before....... Foul language to one referee may not be foul language to another referee, that's where it gets tricky, every referee has there own tolerance levels.

You can't always use the common sense option.

Surely we all know what foul language is?

You know the sort of words we mean. They are the ones we wouldn't want to hear our children use.

I know the sort of words and I'm not sticking up for using foul language, totally against it, but every person / referee interpretation is different!!! Unless the FA produce alist of words, then it's going to continue. There is a book already on LOAF, some refs don't even follow that, so there's no chance of one for foul language being adhered to!

[Voice from the past]

Thank you for the information, so you should be in agreement that some of the current problems are caused as a result of officals who have never played the game so do not appreciate what actually goes on and are still barely out of school being given games that are way beyond their limited experience because somebody within their association sees them as fast track potential, from what I have witnessed this is not benefitting anybody. The most effective officials I have seen are George Patterson, played the game at a high level knows it insideout and receives respect, even his mistakes are accepted by most as it is obvious that he is in full command of the game, Lee Swabey who although still quite young in real terms has rapidly progressed as he has the advantage over some officials in that he played to a decent level. I appreciate that without officials there is no game however to totally absolve them of all responsibility for any negative elements within the game is, in my opinion, blinkered. I don't want to hear a non stop torrent of foul laguage but in my experience players will push the limits to see how far they can go it is up to managers AND officials to set out the stall as to what is and what is not acceptable. I am a firm believer that the game will be better if more transparent lines of communication were to exist between players, managers, and officials so that a a greater understanding and tolerance exists between all parties

[B Manning]

Sorry not in agreement with that, I have known good ex players take up the whistle and are hopeless as referee`s on the other hand I have known young referee`s with limited playing experience turn out as exceptional referee`s so there is no hard and fast rule which says a good ex player will make a good referee and a young inexperienced person a poor one the only way to find out is when they are actually doing it. I am in agreement where a young inexperienced referee officiates a game which really is beyond their experience and is not able to handle the game but ! the only place to gain the experience is on the green stuff.