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Justice for the 96


hedgerow
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After 23 yrs the truth has now been confirmed that the fans of Liverpool Footall Club were not at fault for the events that took place at Hillsborough.

I have to be very carefull what I write on this forum otherwise it will be deleted. Everyone including a certain newspaper blamed the fans for the killing of our own fans. After all the inquests that took place, the facts were hidden by not just the Police but the Ambulance service as well. 164 statements were altered by the emergency services, how can these people sleep at night knowing they fabricated the evidence. Possibly 41 fans could have saved if they done there job properly, but no, 96 fans did not come home. LFC asked the FA a week before the game to delay the kick off due to roadworks on the M62 and just before the kick off to allow fans more time to get into the ground. But the FA turned it down

People must pay for this. Liverpool FC fans have now been cleared, now lets bring the people who made the decisions on the day to Justice.

Everyone concerned must make sure this never happens again, heavens forbid it does not, but I hope for there sake they do not have to wait 23 years for justice. A message to the media as well, GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.

YNWA

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A pity they didn't make sure it didn't happen again after Heysel. So what do you want now? At witch-hunt after 23 years? This will never be resolved to the satisfaction of those who feel cheated. The all-seater stadia came as a result of this and now most fans feel safer in that environment. So why do fans still insist on standing in seated areas?

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Baldy, your reply is a reason why I never posted about this yesterday. Its blinkered views in comparing Heysel to Hillsborough that a lot of people have.

Heysel was something totally different and I'm not even going to go into that.

Hillsborough was caused by the authorities not doing a good enough job, police, ambulance service, Sheffield Wednesday FC, The FA for having the game at Hillsborough in the first place despite of what happened the year before. Finally, the South Yorkshire police - who in their apology yesterday even got the date of the disaster wrong - for having no one suitable to run the day. Duckenfield should be accountable for it. Another policeman has since passed away with an unblemished record to his name whilst all along he knew there was a cover up.

The main thing that Liverpool fans knew all along was that 'they lied', there was no blame on the Liverpool fans despite many people saying there was, including the PM at the time. The Sun newspaper was wrong, and for that reason DON'T BUY THE SUN.

The fight for Justice now begins for 96 families.

RIP the 96, YNWA

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This is an extremely difficult situation. At last there is more clarity on the overall events of that horrible day. The thing is, no one woke up that morning with the intent of killing 96 people. No one in the Police force, none of the ambulance crews, the authorities, the Liverpool fans, stadium stewards and so on and so on.

There has been a "cover up" - but of what exactly? I am not sure that is yet clear. The news reports I have heard (I do not read any newspapers, bar the Cornishman, where of course everything is true!!!) are basically saying that the reports were changed to make it not look so bad for the "services". This is unforgivable, but even if we bring to "justice" the person responsible for altering, or deleting extracts from, the reports for that day, it seems oddly remote from anything that actually happened on that day. Do you see what I mean?

A decision to open the gates to prevent the crush outside the stadium, but merely repositioning the crush to inside the stadium, appears to be the decision that cost lives. The person who made that call presumably did not think that 96 people would consequently die? He presumably made a decision, in the heat of the moment, in the hope that what he was doing was for the best, not the worst. Is it right to put all the blame at his feet and bring him to "justice".

Should the "justice" be taken backwards, as we now know the extent of the "over-capacity" situation (I believe the pens where the deaths occurred had an official capacity of 2200, even though it was known that a safe capacity should have been 1600). Did the person who made the decision to allow this "additional unsafe capacity" realise that deaths would occur? I guess not.

I feel, along with most other people, that "justice" needs to be done here. What I am struggling with is "what exactly the justice is"? What punishment will fit the crime?

I really hope I have made my point, or rather my question, clearly. This is one subject that is difficult to tackle for obvious reasons, and although I get involved in the odd bit of banter here and there, I am not trying to do that here!

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Mangle, currently the death certificates say 'Accidental death', now these are deaths that could have been avoided. 41 people could have even survived what had happened.

The authorities didn't control the day. If you go to an event, you are expected to be looked after. If someone was injured or killed at an event that you put on because say, there were too many people on a bouncy castle or something, you would then be held responsible for that death or injury because of negligence.

These Liverpool fans were accused of causing the death of fellow fans, when all along they knew that they weren't responsible for this. It was the act of others that caused this to happen.

Thatcher still takes her Baroness name or whatever it is, but she knew about the cover up, she agreed with police, 'to blame liverpool fans' because at the time football was a working mans game! and lets face it, Thatcher never liked Liverpool in the first place.

Build a bonfire

Build a bonfire

and put Thatcher on the top

put McKenzie in the middle

and then but the ******* lot

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Firstly, and let me make this quite clear, the police in Sheffield made mistakes, no getting away from it and if that is the Justice that has been required for 23 years, then go in peace. Everyone has sympathies for the 96 victims and families, no one is blaming them for anything.

However, I fear that the report has only given those on Merseyside the 'verdict' they wanted in order to shut them up. I'm sorry St. Darren, but you cannot wash away the sins of those who murdered the 39 Italian fans a few years earlier. Every football fan who travelled to away games back in the 80's knew which clubs fans were 'naughty', which towns and cities to get through as quickly as possible, and we all swapped stories of fans 'activities' on our travels.

Clubs who had made it into Europe back then included the two Merseyside teams and Aberdeen. Not many of you will know of the reputation the Scottish clubs fans had but they were at the forefront of the 'hooligan' scene. However, it was the LFC & EFC fans who made the news on a regular basis, trouble at just about every game they played in Europe.

Let me tell you a story of a group of fans of a small town club, who were returning home one Sunday after a win at Northampton that afternoon. They were sat drinking cans of beer at Liverpool St Station in London waiting for a train home, in came a group of Everton fans, who noting the same blue and white scarves, came over and introduced themselves. It was a pleasant enough exchange, the Scousers seeing that this small group were no threat and the small town lads in awe if truth be told. The Everton fans were travelling to Harwich to get the boat across to Holland, the game wasn't until Weds night but they were on a 'shopping' trip.

No train tickets bought, although there was no getting on a boat without one, this was the only expense these lads had incurred in getting to the game. 'Behave yourselves on the way out, don't attract attention, get across the North Sea and then let the authorities deal with whatever happens afterwards'. This group of lads were more clued up than the average thug, they let the pissed and drugged up idiots get nicked, knowing the police abroad had no clue on how to handle thousands of invading fans. Once abroad, they would slip quietly into small towns near the port and stock up on beer and food from shops, no cash required, they would quickly move on.

Once in the host town or city, they would start scouting out the jewellers and fashion stores. The 80's Casual scene was created by Liverpool and Aberdeen fans, the EFC fans were just carrying on the tradition. The night before a game when thousands of fans had arrived, the local police would have no idea on how to handle the pissed up fans who promptly acted up. Trouble would ensue and whilst the police were chasing shadows, the clued up lads would be robbing the stores and slipping back to the train station to stash their booty in left luggage lockers. If you ever wondered how the designer labels of Lacoste, Tacchini etc arrived in the UK, it was on the backs of fans who dumped the rags they wore on the journey over, slipping into something more comfortable knowing the police were looking for scruffy herberts. These labels were seen on the terraces soon after and the fashion scene caught on.

The fans would return home, usually under police escort to the boats. The British press would have the stories, the public would be shocked for 10mins or so and the Europeans were left to clear up the mess. After 3 weeks or so, the 'lads' would slip back across the North Sea to collect the goodies they had stashed in the left luggage lockers, have a night in Amsterdam or Hamburg before coming home laden with thousands of pounds worth of easily hidden chains, watches and rings.

Back to the game, many fans would travel without match tickets (shocker I know, but true despite the protestations of those at Hillsborough), they had learned over the years that if enough turned up and caused problems outside the ground, the local police would order gates to be opened and let them in. It was easier for the police to keep the fans in one confined space inside, rather than have mobs roaming outside stretching already limited resources. If anyone tells you this didn't happen at Sheffield, they are lying.

Darren, the police didn't murder 39 Italians, nor was it the fans of other clubs as the Scousers would have you believe. Stories coming out of Liverpool that fans of Chelsea and other non Merseyside clubs had turned up was nonsense, plenty of non Scouse accents were heard, but travel up the M6 any Saturday and you will see the coachloads of LFC fans going to a 'home' game.

RIP 96 and Justice for the 39.

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Why bring all that up Nemisis? as I said, this is nothing to do with Heysel!

Heysel happened due to crowd violence between rival sets of fans, Liverpool fans were set upon in 1984 in Rome, and this time they went determined to stand there ground. Due to rioting, the crowd rushed and a wall in a stadium collapsed! once again, a stadium that shouldn't have been used for a football match. There were fans of other teams there, I know people that were there and I know people that went over with Arsenal, West Ham fans, so don't say they weren't there.

Liverpool were punished for what happened, including other English teams. They've admitted their guilt in that as well.

Back to Hillsborough though and ticketing. Fans still travel without tickets in the hope of getting one off a tout outside the ground, it happens when you have a large following.

Hillsborough and Heysel are two totally separate occassions.

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LFC fans are 100% innocent, that is what appears to be the call from the 'Justice' brigade. The report failed to look at the history of the fans, it should have been a vital part of the investigation, yet was ignored for fear of upsetting those on Merseyside, the unwritten rule seems to be, don't give the 'Justice' group more reasons to complain.

By all means slate 'The S*n', no problem with that, but the Liverpool Daily Post also made accusations against LFC fans (later retracted after threats against the reporter), no protest against a paper on home soil it seems. The Police were doing what they thought was right, given the history of the fans and the circumstances, it backfired... who is to blame for that ?

The Sth Yorks police were well aware of the likelihood of incidents involving LFC fans and acted accordingly. A big group of fans amassed outside, minor scenes of unrest, the police let them in to prevent trouble... the rest is history. RIP 96.

Sweep the deaths of 39 fans under the carpet if you want Darren, but I doubt the 39 families ever will.

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not going to get into argument about it. Read up on the Truth and the facts.

as I said, Heysel is totally different, some Liverpool fans were wrong and have been blamed for that and rightly so, that wall that collapsed could have quite easily been Liverpool fans on the other side and therefore the Juve fans would have been to blame.

Likewise at Hillsborough, that could have been Forest fans at that end, what happened would still have happened due to the piss poor organisation by South Yorkshire police.

Also, according to you, 'mud sticks' so if you've done something bad in the past, you'll always be labelled with that yeah? just cos there was hooliganism in years before with Liverpool fans (and other fans), therefore you're branded a hooligan everytime you go football??? hmmm, actually thinking about it, having been Stamford Bridge to watch Liverpool, you're right, those from that area including the Met Police treat Liverpool fans as they were back in the 80's!

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Mangle, currently the death certificates say 'Accidental death', now these are deaths that could have been avoided. 41 people could have even survived what had happened.

The authorities didn't control the day. If you go to an event, you are expected to be looked after. If someone was injured or killed at an event that you put on because say, there were too many people on a bouncy castle or something, you would then be held responsible for that death or injury because of negligence.

These Liverpool fans were accused of causing the death of fellow fans, when all along they knew that they weren't responsible for this. It was the act of others that caused this to happen.

It's not proven that the 41 people would have survived. There is merely a change to the old conclusion that past 3.15pm, there was no chance of survival. This has now been changed to say that 41 could have had a chance of survival after 3.15pm. There is no indication, as far as I know, what chances of survival any of these people had.

Your point about the bouncy castle is a fair point. I therefore think you are leaning towards the blame lying with the person or people responsible for the ground capacities. (You say "others" were responsible, I am trying to work out who the "others" are).

The standard of the ground was poor, and the pens being used were given capacities that were known to be beyond the safe limits. The "authorities" that you say did not control the day could hardly have been responsible for that. Presumably, the people trying to get into the pens had tickets, there was no way the police could be counting the number of people, so had to assume that the fans that were pushing to get inside the ground, but creating a problem in that area, would be better off going inside.

The local council and Sheffield Wednesday FC are perhaps more in the line of fire now? They are the people that knew the situation with regards to ground standard and safety limits etc. It sounds more like this was "an accident waiting to happen". No matter who was in charge on the day, was there any chance this event could have been avoided in the circumstances?

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Perhaps if the Liverpool fans accepted some responsibility for there behaviour as I'm sure they are not 100% innocent then there would be no cover ups or lies printed,

Not 1 person went to football that day meaning for the tragedy to happen, but now the police have accepted some responsibility it is time for the Liverpool fans to do the same.

Despite what happened all those years ago Liverpool fans will never change, you only have to read the forums about their behaviour at last seasons f.a. Cup game at wembley for proof of this.

LIVERPOOL FANS: OFFENDED BY EVERYTHING AND ASHAMED OF NOTHING.

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Cornish Blue - I hope you or your friends at a football match never have to go through what Liverpool fans went through that day, and then have the blame laid at your feet.

I just think that some people will never be educated to what happened that day, and I'll leave it at that

Darren, I would not wish what happened on anyone, but for anyone to say the fans were totaly inoccent is wrong,

I know you have travelled all over to watch liverfool with probably the same passion I have when I follow Chelsea, and over the years things have change within the stadiums, the way the games are policed etc, but there are still with all teams quite a few idiots that think they are still back in the 80's.

I just feel to lay the blame solely with the services is very unfair

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So why do fans still insist on standing in seated areas? NO RESPONSES AS YET.

I firmly believe that many Liv supporters turned up at Hills without tickets and created a fuss and the gates were opened. If true then some blame must stay with them.

The most pertinent comment I have heard is "The police were concerned with crowd control and not crowd safety".

I am not convinced that this has changed since 1989.

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It's a crying shame what happened on that fateful day and what has happened in the intervening years. It displays a harsh lesson in democracy. The terrible revelations over the last few days uncovered a huge flaw in our government and police force during that time. The disdain and obtuse manner in which they thought they could shift the blame and cover up their actions which lead to kids dying leaves me with a vile taste in my mouth.

With that contemptible Tory government in charge I wander what if the tragedy had happened at Chelsea or Arsenal stadium, I am sure that the investigation would have been far more rigorous. Makes you think what the authorities have got away with in the past.

Justice for the 96.

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I'm talking primarily about the police on the day. Maybe I should have said lack of action......Not letting more ambulances onto the pitch, not listening to what they were being told by the fans or Dr's who were present on the pitch, assuming that the people escaping the crush were pitch invading, Not implementing the Major Incident procedure. Duckenfield not relaying what was happening when he could see what was going on right in front of him

Read the report from page 131 for about 20 pages http://hillsborough..../HIP_report.pdf

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There us something not right about the Hillsborough tragedy report. Forget what happened after the incident that is for the authorities to decide. But it seems the reason for the disaster seems to have been overlooked. How it can be perceived that Liverpool fans were not responsible beggars belief.

In those days it was not uncommon for thousands of ticket less fans to arrive at a ground and try to get into the ground by pushing at the gates leaving the police no option but to order the gates to be opened so as not to have a serious situation outside the ground. Better to contain those so called fans inside the ground than having to deal with the situation outside the ground.

Mangle wrote: A decision to open the gates to prevent the crush outside the stadium, but merely repositioning the crush to inside the stadium, appears to be the decision that cost lives. The person who made that call presumably did not think that 96 people would consequently die? He presumably made a decision, in the heat of the moment, in the hope that what he was doing was for the best, not the worst. Is it right to put all the blame at his feet and bring him to "justice".

Nemesis also wrote: Many fans would travel without match tickets (shocker I know, but true despite the protestations of those at Hillsborough), they had learned over the years that if enough turned up and caused problems outside the ground, the local police would order gates to be opened and let them in. It was easier for the police to keep the fans in one confined space inside, rather than have mobs roaming outside stretching already limited resources. If anyone tells you this didn't happen at Sheffield, they are lying.

Anyone who saw the videos of the incident will clearly see what started the whole episode and will see how it all happened when the so called fans try to push open the gates and the police ordered the gates to be opened. The videos inside the ground clearly showed the masses of people entering the Leppings Lane end was terrifyingly massive and showed that these fans could not possibly have had tickets.

The key to the whole build up to the tragedy is clearly stated in the report headed ‘Opening the exit gates’ from 2.2.58 to 2.2.77.

You can draw your own conclusions as to who caused the problem. Was it the hordes of ticket less fans rushing through the gates that killed their own supporters or the police who acted in the cause of safety. Only they will know and have on their conscious. But for the whole world to be told that the Liverpool fans were not responsible is a bit beyond the pale. The report is a huge cover up for political expedience and reputation of Liverpool. I’m afraid the public will not be fooled by the outcome.

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The government role in hood winking the public is something to be marvelled at.

Liverpool fans were there. Police were there. People died due to the ineptitude of the authorities on that day. When you attend a public event you have a right to attend in reasonable safety and in the knowledge that you will arrive home in the evening. That never happened here the authorities made a massive mistake then lied cheated and attempted to cover up.

Its akin to saying the man utd players on the plane in Munich deserved to die and get injured because they didn't stop the pilot from attempting to take off. Ridiculous?

People who speak ill of the dead and injured should watch a documentary and read the facts.

Also be known that public opinion is not with the insensitive postings here and if this page was to fall into the hands of the press you could find you're inbox full very quickly.

Hopefully one day you will see that this is not a 'team' matter or about liverpool fc or the city of Liverpool

it is about football and its supporters and the way the authorities lied to cover their own shortcoming and illegal behaviour

You only have to see the John Paul menezes case or the Ian Tomlinson story to see what is going to happen here. Sad but true

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Nemesis you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Whats you're name and who are you?

Are you a cloak and dagger type that steal out from the night just to pick a fight, safe in the knowledge that you can say these things then turn youre computer off and kiss you're boyfriend goodnight with a sly smile on you're face like someone who's having an affair?

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People died due to the ineptitude of the authorities on that day.

Whilst in some part, that statement could be true, are you blinkered to the FACT that Sheffield Wednesday FC and Sheffield Council were aware that the pens were not safe and over-capacity? No matter what "authorities" were there and in control on that fateful day, was this not an accident waiting to happen? Can they soley be at fault? Is it not a case that they were in control of something that was doomed to failure?
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I look forward to prosecution not only of Tory MP Patnick, who deliberately spread misinformation about the fans, but to a public demonstration of Thatcher's role in covering up the truth about Hillsborough, a tragedy perpetrated by the Tory party and their supporters; a betrayal of the working class.

Isaac - correct. The beers on me when the grocers daughter pops her clogs.

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Nemesis you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Whats you're name and who are you?

Are you a cloak and dagger type that steal out from the night just to pick a fight, safe in the knowledge that you can say these things then turn youre computer off and kiss you're boyfriend goodnight with a sly smile on you're face like someone who's having an affair?

Trombone Terry - Member Since 29 Aug 2012 - Managed to write crap (52 times) on every subject possible in less than 3 weeks. As you were just 7 years old at the time of Hillsborough, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate the finer points of the argument.

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