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Important rule change vote to take place at trelawny league agm -rolling subs


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I have received a letter from the Trelawny league this week (only got home yesterday) concerning the rule change rumour that has been flying around over the last month about a trial to be carried out on the intended introduction of rolling subs. At this years Agm all member clubs are going to be asked to discuss and vote on the introduction for the 2012/13 & 2013/14 season of either 1,2,3,4 or 5 subs to be used during a game. Once one of those subs has entered the field of play the player they have replaced will become an active sub and can replace another player later on in the game who will then become a sub that can be reused again (in plain English rolling subs)

The FA are intending to conduct the trial for two seasons and will review the results and decide on weather to adopt it on a permanent basis after that time. The main reason behind the proposed introduction is to increase participation at amateur level adult football below step 7 football as it is already used at youth level.

This has been discussed quite extensively on the combination league/ecpl forum at the following link http://www.cornwallfootballforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20493 and provided quite a lively debate. I've posted on here as I suggest all players should discuss these rule changes with their secretaries on the pros and cons of the introduction before the Agm vote in June. If the vote is passed it will be implemented next season.

Personally I think the following

Pros

More players can be used no 4th 5th sub not getting a game (followed by earache from those players)

More players playing more football

Cons

Unfair advantage to a team that turns up with 16 players against a side that may only have a bare 11 or only 12

Difficult to get 'into' a game if the side is chopped and changed to regularly

Injuries occurring if players find themselves warming down on the sideline then straight back on to the pitch

Disruption to the flow of the game

Anyway that's what's going to be discussed.....let the debate begin :)

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I think we need to look at this from a players point of view and the managers point of view.

If you are a fringe player at a club then sure this new rule is gonna get that player more playing time. However when a player doesn't get much playing time they generally move to a club that is lacking in players to get a game so where would it leave those clubs ? . If you were normally a regular in your side and started getting taken off and put back every tweny minutes surely players will get frustrated or injured from stop/ starting.

From a managers point of view i have been lucky all season to have good numbers to choose from so if i can start rolling on /off subs then i dont need to worry about team selection until sat which surely take the fun out of being the manager

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my thoughts on this proposal are that the fa fifa and dear old sep blatter always say its got to be the same across the world will you see this in the prem ,champions league i doubt it, it will become more like american football with clubs bringing players into play to have advantage during games some could be on and off like a yo yo.The princable of getting more players involed would be simple cut the extravagant fees and fines paid to the fa subsidise correctly grass roots football and more teams would enter the but more needs to be done with the looking after of the small local village and town teams that struggle to pay all the monies to the ccfa/fa and councils etc.and just another comment what after two years its thrown out by the fa back to where we were, nothing to show for it

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Guest BenTheYeti

Heard about this around the start of April and really thought it was an April Fool's Joke..

Obviously, as Pitty has rightly pointed out, there are some Pro's, but they are greatly outweighed by the Con's.. I have yet to talk to anyone who thinks this is a good idea (apart from the St Ives Res. Manager who added "I'd be pulling all sorts of stunts".. says it all really!).

I am a bit surprised by the Trelawny League for wanting to get involved in this right now.. what with the impending introduction of ID cards for every player next season, and the teething problems that have been experienced in this, the debut season, which in turn leads to what we're all led to believe is another shake up of the leagues for next season.. at this rate, the AGM is going to represent something similar to the Papal Conclave ..

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I have to agree with Pitty, certainly unfair on the team with only 1 or no subs to have to play against a team who have the use of 5 subs and it happens all the while that a team have the bare 11 or only 1 sub available. also what if a team had a good penalty taker sat on the bench and the team get a penalty awarded, I am sure he would come on to take the penalty, getting a bit americanised for me. I also have read in a FIFA document that next season any uncontested drop ball ,if it goes into the goal it is a goal kick that is given ( not 100% sure of the wording but that would seem to be the idea).

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Superb idea no lad should turn up and take off a clean unused kit at the end of the game at this level of football it has to be about enjoyment and for a team like mine with no reserves , I always start with a squad of 16/17 players pre season and end up in February with a bare 11 as you can not keep more than 14 players happy , the lad who turns up for the 1st few weeks and doesn't get a game moves on so come mid winter a couple of injuries and work commitments plus your star player who has been promised the world be a senior team but in fact is warming their bench your down to 11 , I personally think this gives us smaller teams a better chance to keep a squad together so to be able to give 15 players a good run out each and every week is a huge thumbs up !! :thumbsup:

. As for the roll on roll off it's worth giving a go surely it works well in the kids football , you get a chance to do a bit more coaching by talking to the lad that's come off and pointing out to him what and where you want him to be doing when he goes back on , calm down a lad that is losing the plot , we've all rolled an ankle that feels like it's broken but ten minutes later your good to go again and at the end of the day we all have to go to work the following week so there is no reason for anyone to struggle on playing the last 15 cause all the subs have been used . It is change though and that scares the crap out of people hey. :o

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Not for me, this is messing with the fundamental rules of the game and I just want to play football as it should be played.

Let's spend the time getting the basics right in the Trelawny league first - starting with fixture scheduling which we are all aware has not been great this season and in recent seasons.

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I'm all for seeing the game evolve......we have experienced changes for years, with back passes, offisde rule etc etc.....there will obviously be pros and cons for all teams. I agree with you bouff, there is nothing worse than coming off with an injury only for it to feel better after 10 mins.....it's worth trying and if it proves a mistake then it can be changed again......my only concern would be teams time wasting, being 1-0 up and then constantly making subs near the end.....maybe only being allowed to make 1 sub in the last 5 mins would be a way to stop it.

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I've seen this work several times in Sweden (where I believe it operates up to level 3 or 4) and no one seems to have a problem with it.

It's a proposed trial, if it doesn't work the trial will be unsuccessful and not be implemented further (such as one a decade or more ago about having an option for a "kick-in" instead of a "throw-in". If it does work, then it can be taken further.

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It may be only junior football and seen as a bit of fun to some but where has the competitive ethos gone? As I have said before, as in life, it must remain competitive and if you are going to pick people because they turn up every week regardless if they are any good then you are doing the players who deserve to play and your club a disservice. If someone aint good enough, they stay, train and try to improve or move onto a lesser side where they perhaps belong. Sounds harsh but you show me a true winner who would want it any other way. If I, as a player, was picked to play cos I was a nice lad etc etc, then I would only be kidding myself. If the rule wants to be trialled, find a sunday league pub side!!!!

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Think of the level of football we are playing. We are not Premier League. The 5 subs rule is certainly a good idea in my book. Read what Gwinear No 10 has written. Let's hear your issues with his comments. Tempo, you say it's not worth debating, why? You play in Division 5 of a Junior football league. It is worth debating, and my opinion is that it is a good idea.

As for rolling subs, not sure. But what's wrong with a trial at our level?

Last week, we had 5 subs, 2 guys got no football. This week, we had 1 sub. Made the change near the start of the second half, few minutes later, our keeper goes off injured. Our recently subbed player can't come back - we finish the game with 10 men. So rolling subs would have helped us today.

Not worth a trial?

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Guest smashing pumpkin

we have trails of this in pre season frendlies when teams turns up with 20 players and the matches are roll on roll off.

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Terrible idea.

Well summarised Tempo, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Not even worth debating really

If memory serves me right from previous posts, this comes from someone who's gone from club to club as you couldn't get a game. Had rolling subs been in place you'd proberly still be at your first club. nobody moans about it pre-season and it works in other countries as well as youth football.
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Think of the level of football we are playing. We are not Premier League. The 5 subs rule is certainly a good idea in my book. Read what Gwinear No 10 has written. Let's hear your issues with his comments. Tempo, you say it's not worth debating, why? You play in Division 5 of a Junior football league. It is worth debating, and my opinion is that it is a good idea.

As for rolling subs, not sure. But what's wrong with a trial at our level?

Last week, we had 5 subs, 2 guys got no football. This week, we had 1 sub. Made the change near the start of the second half, few minutes later, our keeper goes off injured. Our recently subbed player can't come back - we finish the game with 10 men. So rolling subs would have helped us today.

Not worth a trial?

Them is the breaks surely? Isn't that why we all love football - the ups and downs and not knowing what is going to happen next? Pitting your wits against what and who is against you? Cant be looked after in kid gloves for all your like - no offence.

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Yes but I'm glad I'm not still at my first club. I'm much happier where I am now. If rolling subs were there I would still be wasting my time trying to get a chance.

Exactly my point - you either stay and try to improve and force your way into the side or move on and find a team at your level. Simples!!!

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Think of the level of football we are playing. We are not Premier League. The 5 subs rule is certainly a good idea in my book. Read what Gwinear No 10 has written. Let's hear your issues with his comments. Tempo, you say it's not worth debating, why? You play in Division 5 of a Junior football league. It is worth debating, and my opinion is that it is a good idea.

As for rolling subs, not sure. But what's wrong with a trial at our level?

Last week, we had 5 subs, 2 guys got no football. This week, we had 1 sub. Made the change near the start of the second half, few minutes later, our keeper goes off injured. Our recently subbed player can't come back - we finish the game with 10 men. So rolling subs would have helped us today.

Not worth a trial?

Them is the breaks surely? Isn't that why we all love football - the ups and downs and not knowing what is going to happen next? Pitting your wits against what and who is against you? Cant be looked after in kid gloves for all your like - no offence.

Oh, I'm sorry le boss, I thought at our level, it was as much about getting a game of football as well as everything else. In any case, there are clearly different opinions, none of us are right or wrong, so a debate and consequently a vote appears to be a sensible way of dealing with things. Agreed?
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I'm still undecided on this myself.

I've been wanting to see the use of 5 subs for some time now. At this level of football it should all be about participation and getting players involved in a game.

There's nothing worse as a player than to waste your afternoon, travelling up to an hour to get to a game to then be one of 2 of 5 subs that don't get a game. Having managed a side for a season it's also a horrible situation to be in knowing you are going to let a couple of loyal lads down by not being able to give them a game.

I certainly don't think it's an unfair advantage if one team has 5 subs and another has bare 11 or only 1 sub as at the end of the day it's down to the club to attract players and take a full squad.

However I'm not convinced that rolling subs is the best idea. Why can't we have a transition where we experiment with the use of 5 subs but not on a roll on/off basis?

Unfortunately I can see this not even getting a consideration as many people involved in Cornish football are reluctant to change. Whether it's this new proposal or the debate on the use of 3G pitches, we won't see our clubs or leagues embrace these new ideas and our football will remain as it is while the rest of the country moves forwards and evolves.

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Its a great idea, its all about participation and people enjoying the game, we don't play for any prize money so why not increase the participation in the game?

I don't think managers will make a whole load of changes really, but it gives them the option of doing so.

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I have my doubts as to the roll on roll off subs plenty of pro's and plenty of con's and my biggest concern would be like le boss suggested I would not want it to lose it's competitive edge one bit and if it did by 1% it would far out way any pro's for me . I hate pre season friendlies can't stand them as no one around me used to compete the same and it would drive me crazy and I think I've always hated the idea of roll on roll off subs in association to these drab meaningless games but since watching more kids football in a proper competitive game it takes nothing away from their games so for that reason I think it could be tested or at very least debated.

As for the 5 sub rule I for one have been screaming for it ever since taking up coaching , I've said it above and I've said before on here it is near impossible to coach a one team club and keep it competitive for a full season with a squad of 14 . We have had lots of topics on here about reasons why so many junior teams can't for fill fixtures through out the season or have to fold all together one very very big step will help this and as a small club which came very very close to folding during a difficult period having a squad of 16 rather than 14 would be a step in the right direction instead of people moaning when these teams cancel games let's try and understand and find solutions to help prevent it in the first place.

le boss i'm not sure who your " if your not good enough move on post" is in response to as it doesn't seem to fit any of the posts above it ? I'm totally with you on the competitive edge to the game at all levels and it has to be that way but no one is suggesting we fill our squads with players of league 5 standard abilities I'm talking about having a squad of 16 premiership quality players rather than 14 available to me over a whole season that would make the starting 11 far more competitive come February rather than the bare 11 we read about on the junior forums every week ,

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I have my doubts as to the roll on roll off subs plenty of pro's and plenty of con's and my biggest concern would be like le boss suggested I would not want it to lose it's competitive edge one bit and if it did by 1% it would far out way any pro's for me . I hate pre season friendlies can't stand them as no one around me used to compete the same and it would drive me crazy and I think I've always hated the idea of roll on roll off subs in association to these drab meaningless games but since watching more kids football in a proper competitive game it takes nothing away from their games so for that reason I think it could be tested or at very least debated.

As for the 5 sub rule I for one have been screaming for it ever since taking up coaching , I've said it above and I've said before on here it is near impossible to coach a one team club and keep it competitive for a full season with a squad of 14 . We have had lots of topics on here about reasons why so many junior teams can't for fill fixtures through out the season or have to fold all together one very very big step will help this and as a small club which came very very close to folding during a difficult period having a squad of 16 rather than 14 would be a step in the right direction instead of people moaning when these teams cancel games let's try and understand and find solutions to help prevent it in the first place.

le boss i'm not sure who your " if your not good enough move on post" is in response to as it doesn't seem to fit any of the posts above it ? I'm totally with you on the competitive edge to the game at all levels and it has to be that way but no one is suggesting we fill our squads with players of league 5 standard abilities I'm talking about having a squad of 16 premiership quality players rather than 14 available to me over a whole season that would make the starting 11 far more competitive come February rather than the bare 11 we read about on the junior forums every week ,

My point was that it would be easy for someone to just come along as the 15th or 16th player without trying to become even the 12th or 13th or 14th player and that would be a cop out. Maybe I am wrong(wont be the first time) but as a manager I have a duty to make the squad, the team, the player better and I will always try to do that in my own way.

How about, instead of having 5 rolling subs, have 5 subs that can be used in the old way as a compromise. If a club feels disadvantaged cos they cant name 5 subs then basically its tough - them is the rules!!!

people should stop trying to cry foul cos they feel they cant attract players - not really the issue. Deal with it and take on the mantle of "the bigger they are the harder they fall" !!! It really does work.............

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Think of the level of football we are playing. We are not Premier League. The 5 subs rule is certainly a good idea in my book. Read what Gwinear No 10 has written. Let's hear your issues with his comments. Tempo, you say it's not worth debating, why? You play in Division 5 of a Junior football league. It is worth debating, and my opinion is that it is a good idea.

As for rolling subs, not sure. But what's wrong with a trial at our level?

Last week, we had 5 subs, 2 guys got no football. This week, we had 1 sub. Made the change near the start of the second half, few minutes later, our keeper goes off injured. Our recently subbed player can't come back - we finish the game with 10 men. So rolling subs would have helped us today.

Not worth a trial?

Them is the breaks surely? Isn't that why we all love football - the ups and downs and not knowing what is going to happen next? Pitting your wits against what and who is against you? Cant be looked after in kid gloves for all your like - no offence.

Oh, I'm sorry le boss, I thought at our level, it was as much about getting a game of football as well as everything else. In any case, there are clearly different opinions, none of us are right or wrong, so a debate and consequently a vote appears to be a sensible way of dealing with things. Agreed?

Thats why you may always be at "our level" - it shows a lack of ambition and a defeated attitude. I make no apologies for my attitude but I would rather lock horns with teams who were there to be shot at by being bigger and better than a team who are making up the numbers. This is not a personal thing against you or your club i promise you. It's my principles.

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Must have been talking to me pretty early in the evening Martin due to my inability to speak with clarity and non slurring by 8pm!!! I blame Dave Jolly for this drummer boy having a party in my head today following yesterdays "Golf" event!!!!.....Would be interesting if the Pro's at the Ryder Cup adopted the Holmans way of playing golf and drank a shot at every tee....would make entertaining TV!!! :)

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I think it would be an awful idea. In preseason teams have the option to role people on and off but how many actually do it? What are the 3 main reasons for substitution 1) injury- if taken of the field for injury in junior football it must be pretty ba one and you won't be returning to the pitch 2) bad performance- if a player is subbed of for not playing well and he knows that then a 10 or 15 minute spell on the sidelines ain't really Gunna help. 3) tactical- when a manager makes a tactical change its generally because the previous tactics are not working!!

I wouldn't like to see scenarios like a a team that's leading the game has made all 3 substitutions and then gets a player in a key position sent off. They would just be allowed to roll on roll of as they please to waste time and freshen up so the opposition who should be back in the game by a sending off actually doesnt make a huge difference

Really hope this isn't passed!

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Think it's a great idea. It works brilliantly in Vets and youth football and can't see any reason why it would not be a success in the Trelawny league. Many great points raised for and against already particularly by Gwinear No.10. Always seems a shame to me when a player has given up maybe 4/5 hours on a Saturday and goes home not getting a kick. Also a young 16 year old player having his first taste of men's football could be eased in and out of games easier by his manager if it got physical for abit or maybe for the old codgers like me who are knacked at half time could come off and come on again last 10 if you need a goal etc? The game is never over for a player until the final whistle. How many times have we seen a team use all three subs and then a player gets injured and you have to play out the game with 10 men when you have not done anything wrong!!! I can see people's reservations about it but it won't affect the flow of the game or time wasting, ask anyone who has played vets football? All for it.

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I think it would be an awful idea. In preseason teams have the option to role people on and off but how many actually do it? What are the 3 main reasons for substitution 1) injury- if taken of the field for injury in junior football it must be pretty ba one and you won't be returning to the pitch 2) bad performance- if a player is subbed of for not playing well and he knows that then a 10 or 15 minute spell on the sidelines ain't really Gunna help. 3) tactical- when a manager makes a tactical change its generally because the previous tactics are not working!!

I wouldn't like to see scenarios like a a team that's leading the game has made all 3 substitutions and then gets a player in a key position sent off. They would just be allowed to roll on roll of as they please to waste time and freshen up so the opposition who should be back in the game by a sending off actually doesnt make a huge difference

Really hope this isn't passed!

Let's take your first point. There are teams and clubs out there that actually make substitutions so that all subs get a game, regardless of the way the game is going. So there is a 4th "main reason".
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was talking to pitty about this yesterday and one very important issue he brought up was, if a player comes off and then later in the game he comes back on, he will have cooled down and is more liable to get injured.

It's surely up to the player to warm himself back up properly before he comes on, isn't it?

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I'm against the rolling subs even tho as a bitpart player 2nd half of season it may have got me more time on the pitch! I think it would make for a very americanised game, why dont we have timeouts and quarters instead of halves just to top it off?

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I dont think its a good idea, i intentionally only pick 3 subs so I know that everybody is going to get some portion of the game, adding on to what others have said it will be an unfair advantage to a team with 5 subs against a team that has bare 11.

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richard lets be realistic,in most cases players would come off just to have a fag :D as for warming up lots of players at junior level don't bother before a game.but i still think it is a good idea.

pitty banging day jolls is a legend.i wonder how many others are still in the doghouse.still do not know how i got home from cricket club,fell asleep on the kitchen floor ooooops

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Surely the subs used will still remain at the managers discretion? In which case if you prefer the old format then stick with it; but in an emergency you will perhaps take the option up from time to time.

Personally if I come off I'm staying off as I imagine that an injury would follow should I go back on (I'm not 12 anymore!)

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As a manager, I can see both sides to the argument, it would certainly help to ensure players have game time. That said, its not for me personally for 2 reasons. Firstly, I think managers will feel more pressure to make the substitutions. How would a player feel if he comes along and you don't feel he is the right player to bring on at any point? Players would expect game time more than they do already.

Secondly, I feel it would severely disrupt the flow of the game. We all know it takes players time to get into the game, and time is taken out of the game to make the substitution. This could be exploited by managers to take the sting out of spells of dominance, or as previously mentioned, to run down the clock towards the end of the game.

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This is a joke right, there actually people on here who want this in...... Have aword with your self

It's a disgrace if we are putting these rules in place why don't we take off our shorts and start wearing skirts.

If this does come into to play I won't be playing next year.

What a disgrace. George best, stan Matthews etc would be turning in their graves

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Whats your reasons for not agreeing with it Deano?

It increases participation at the relatively poor standard that we currently play at. Football is about enjoyment isn't it? how are you meant to get better as a player if you're not playing at all? how are you supposed to learn as a youngster.

As I said before this thread even started, its a great idea to do it so more people can enjoy football at 'grass roots' level.

There hasn't been one reason in this whole thread that would legitimately be used as being a good reason for this not to happen.

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which way should this go ?

5 subs not rolling.(bigger disavantage to sides who have one or two subs).

5 subs rolling (turn up with one or two subs that can be brought on and off during the game can make it a more even playing field )

has the descision to up the subs to 5 already been decided or could it even be 3 subs rolling on and off.

really not sure how to vote on this i manage youth and mens football but not convinced rolling subs would work on a saturday.

sunday league when alot of players have played on saturday sounds like a much better league to trial this. :wacko:

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