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Shoot me down oldasitgets !!


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Ok first I’d like to say I’ve been reading all these threads with interest about the junior cup semi finals etc. Do I think a ref has cheated ? No of course not but to my complete surprise yesterday I witnessed an amazing chain of events and would be interested in some opinions. I’m not trying to start a witch hunt and I’m not after a headmaster style lecture from oldasitgets ( although I am interested in your opinion I totally agreed on your post about the stupidest rule in football , I think it’s crazy at our level of football that we can’t use as many subs as turn up , for any lad to take off a clean kit unused is a crime but this is the horrible decision I have to make most weeks when I have 5 subs )

I’m posting this calm and reflective which to be fair I was yesterday , you can ask Darren or any of the other 10 lads from Redruth and they will back me up.

Here’s the scene we’re playing Redruth and my boys are chasing the game after a dreadful 1st half display ( Phil ran the show for Redruth 1st half ) we score a goal to pull it back to 3 2 the ref point to the half way line and gives the goal as he and my players run back for the re start he is surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him that it was offside . To everybody’s horror instead of waving them away he runs to our lino ( Redruth had a bare 11 so we provided both lino’s who were 100% honest and fare which Redruth will agree ) the particular lino he approached is a qualified referee and only 18 now this may sound untrue but I can assure you this is what happened the ref confirmed this after the game he asked our lion to cheat !! There I said it the big fat word CHEAT , now I can assure you these were his words “ just say yes , just say yes , was it offside lino , just say yes , just say yes “ to which our lino said I can’t ref there was too many players from both teams on or around the goal line “ the ref to his amazement turns around and shouts offside ! I’m right next to the ref now and I ask him, calmly and without swearing how is it ok to surround a ref and get him to change his decision, he tells me it’s up to him so I suggest that we are and have been all season playing at a disadvantage by not questioning the ref if it can save you a goal, still without raising my voice or swearing he then asks for my name and shows me my 1st ever red card in 30 years of football !

Mr. Manning I’d love to hear your opinion on this as your posts seem to be very honest .

1 I’d like to know how the hell a ref can ask an 18 year old lino to cheat ? and that is 100% true the ref admitted that after when I questioned him on it his response was that “ I had already made up my mind to reverse my decision to give the goal and I didn’t want him to make matters worse “

2. Is it worth me appealing against my red card he said he gave it me because he felt threatened by me ! He also lied for a second time by saying I ran from the half way line. Total nonsense I have a cruciate knee injury and can barely walk , I didn’t raise my voice or swear and have plenty of witnesses from both sides that will back me up. I would stand up in a court and swear on all the above.

3. Should I know tell my players who from my own instructions have not been allowed to question the ref ( our left back does moan a little but that’s about our only crime ) , should I now tell them to question everything and that contra to what I’ve had drummed into me for 30 years “ moaning or surrounding the ref will make no difference he won’t ever change his mind “

May I say no disrespect to Redruth Phil was outstanding yesterday and Darren made a few very fine tackles and instead of using his hands this week he made a fine stop with his head on the line , all this from a man with knees second only to mine ! Well done boys we enjoyed a good game of football and a beer and some food together after .

ps I know now how you felt the other week Richard , and our game meant nothing in the great scheme of things unlike yours.

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Should I know tell my players who from my own instructions have not been allowed to question the ref ( our left back does moan a little but that’s about our only crime ) , should I now tell them to question everything and that contra to what I’ve had drummed into me for 30 years “ moaning or surrounding the ref will make no difference he won’t ever change his mind “

No, whatever happens, please don't change your belief that the referee shouldn't be hassled. However, what you have revealed is rather concerning.

In my view, what enjoyment can the referee be getting from doing a game, if he resorts to this.

I know it is suggested we are short of referees, but quite frankly, a referee like this is no good for the game. He should pack up immediately. Dare I say it, but surely he is bringing the game into disrepute?

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I know it doesn't help, but you asked. I'll give you my view from the hip.

I can see where the referee started going, I can see how he set off down a route that had no turn offs, no possibility of reversing.

Once he's got there, rational thought, behaviour, disappears. We used to have a military saying when somebody was so overloaded with stress, fear and pressure that he stopped functioning. We'd say he was "bobbing".

The reality is that he's hit with an adrenalin load, he goes white, can't think and anything after that is a disaster.

That point was reached when he was, to quote "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him". He, as any rational, intelligent human being, would want out of it. "Flight or fight". With that sort of pressure he must doubt the evidence of his own eyes and senses.

Once he's gone over that edge, you can't hold him responsible for anything that happens after.

I've seen it many times in my 45 plus playing years. I've seen it, even experienced it, as a young school teacher as the classroom descended into anarchy.

The "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him that it was offside" should NEVER happen. That's where football's gone wrong.

Football to its total shame, has allowed that to become almost acceptable. We HAVE to move to a point when EVERY player who speaks to the ref, apart from the captain, is automatically cautioned. 10 or eleven fines and disciplinary points will soon stop it. If the players carry on, the yellows automatically turn to red. Job done. Bet they don't do it next week.

I know you're upset. Don't blame the ref. Blame the state that this beautiful game has allowed itself to get itself into.

Dave Deacon, not that this referee isn't good for the game. The game, as it is, isn't good for this referee. Too many adrenalin shocks are really damaging to your health. He isn't bringing the game into disrepute, his actions merely illustrate how disreputable the game is.

Sorry, it is a bit headmaster type lecture but it is so important that we change the game.

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I'm not sure about the "headmaster type lecture", but more like the mela-dramatics!

I agree the "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him that it was offside" should NEVER happen, but why didn't the referee as it was suggested wave the players away, and if that didn't work - yellow card them all. Yes, all of them.

Whatever went on, the players should be blamed, but sorry the ref also should be brought before the powers to be to at least discuss things. If he isn't up to reffing, he should be stopped. Just like we do with players.

Overall though, just where have we gone so wrong with this beautiful game? I watched a match yesterday where there was also a rugby match going on. So at half-time I wandered over to watch the rugby, not that I understand the game, but at least I stayed occupied for ten minutes!

The first thing you notice is that there is no moaning between team-mates - unlike the football game I was at; there is no back-chat to the referee - unlike the football game; and the players and supporters actually seemed to be enjoying their leisure time on a Saturday afternoon - unlike the football game!

Just how we change our game - well there's the question. Perhaps we should all watch a rugby match for ten minutes :lol:

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oldasitgets thank you for your reply and with out knowing the bobbing term myself this is exactly what I think happened also . Dave asked me in a pm who the ref was , I said I didm't know his name but I thought he had done a good job up until then and I'm sure he is a very good ref but that doesn't help my red card or the fact that with me being sent off we had another 2 lads not getting a run out as i wasn't able to bring them on.

I take your point that he lost his head and maybe through no fault of his own but at no point did i lose mine yet my team has a goal chalked off I have a big fine and not all my lads got to play football , all this and we were the ones that provided two lino's and have fully stuck to the respect campaign !!

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No I disagree Dave. The ref behaved rationally. If we feel threatened, more primitive survival mechanisms take over. Can't be helped.

If yellow carding becomes normal, then it'll have an effect. Referees and the authorities have given tacit approval to dissent. What a fuss there'd be if he actually carded 8 or 9. It would, of course, just be showing that he was unfit to referee.

Dave, or anyone else, come and watch one of the Sunday league matches. We've moved on so far that players who do both, say that the Sunday game is like a different sport. Our referees mark the teams out of 10. The average for the worst team is just under 8, the best over 9. Players smile. Referees smile, supporters smile. Sounds a bit like the rugby game you watched.

I have offered to talk to any league to explain how the Sunday League system works, but nobody seems interested. Are they really happy with the way referees are teated? Referees are even asking for it in the Saturday Leagues.

As a recommendation, the F.A. have been keen to point out that it's not part of their national strategy. Must be good.

Gwinear number 10, as I said, don't blame the ref for your red card, goal etc, blame the state of the game.

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Dave, or anyone else, come and watch one of the Sunday league matches.

Sure I must do that. I must also take in a Mining One game as well to see how the two leagues differ.

What's the criteria for a player in the Sunday League - is it just to be a Junior player? Meaning the same players that appear on a Saturday, can also be turning out on a Sunday?

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GwinearNo.10, Please carry on playing football to the standards you set your players, As to Redruth surrounding the ref and screaming at him I would have started with cautions followed by red cards if they persisted. Perhaps the ref felt so intimidated that he saw his only way out was to disallow the goal. Now there was no reason to tell the assistant to cheat ( if this happened (remember I have only hearsay) that ref should be ashamed of himself, he does no favours to himself or others who follow). Why i say he had no reason to say that to the assistant is that all major decisions on the field are his so all he had to tell the assistant was that he was disallowing the goal. As to your red card it would seem as though he had lost the plot and was trying to restore discipline, wait for the referee`s report see what he has reported and if you have good witnesses then appeal( it will be interesting to see why he sent you off. In my opinion just feeling threatened by a player is not a sending off offence ( i have just looked through Law12 fouls and misconduct and it`s not mentioned) so he has to fabricate a reason. I hope my opinion of your post helps your thoughts on the issues, sorry I am unable to add anything more but not being present at the incidents really restricts my comments.

oldasitgets this quote "not that this referee isn't good for the game. The game, as it is, isn't good for this referee." is probably more profound that you realise. I have known quite a few referee`s who have taken up the whistle with all the best intentions in the world but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of actually refereeing a game they always seem to fall short of being able to make the decisions that are needed and of course there is the opposite people who you would think are the last person in the world to make a go of it turn out to be brilliant referee`s. I hope this makse sense.

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Most teams have a core of players who play on a Saturday and a Sunday.

How about the referees used? Is it a small band of regular ones?

We have a regular band of referees who, I like to think, form part of our community. Mike Carter (Porky) is part of the League's Management Committee.

But, the League is at a point where we can use young, inexperienced referees without much fear of them having the sort of experience that will put them off reffing for ever. I have suggested that to the referee training system and that is beginning to happen.

I am so proud of the way that we treat our referees. It has taken several years to get to where we are. I'm quite happy to help others benefit from our experiences. We have sanctions for clubs, we have rewards. No team that consistently treats referees properly will pay an affiliation fee to this league next season. ( Currently that's every team in the league.)

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Hardly any. We get the "mandatory ones" - stops a goal with hands, late tackle - usually a mistake. Very rarely for dissent now.

The referees' mark sheets and teamsheets ask for yellows and reds to be shown. I see less than one a week - from all the clubs together. The ref can deduct a sporting point for a yellow, 2 for a red - if it's to do with the way they are treated. If the clubs are averaging over 8, you can work out for yourself that it doesn't happen too often.

The other interesting bit is that clubs mark the referees highly. I've just found a note from County saying that, as Sunday League marks are higher than Saturdays, they MUST be marking too generously and they will be factored down.

THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE. The referees enjoy their game and are relaxed and confident. That means that they function better and can referee properly without the stress that affects their ability to make considered decisions. They get better marks. The same people mark the refs Saturday and Sunday.

The whole thing is a no-brainer. Relaxed referees are better referees. Better referees make for a better game.

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Ok, an interesting post. I guess I feel compelled to comment...

Firstly, I think my knees are worse than Gwinear No10 (they've been going steadily downhill for 18 years!) -but thanks for the compliment :D And thanks to Gwinear for providing a linesman for us.

Secondly, whatever did or didn't happen during the game, whatever the perception, I don't like to see my club's name highlighted in the way it has been.

For this reason, I will remind our players, and in particular our captain - who represents our team on the pitch - to ensure that any contentious decisions are relayed through the man with the armband.

Referees have a hard enough job to do in local football without feeling threatened. We should be grateful for every game that has an official referee. Only the referee will know whether he felt this way. If so, on behalf of Redruth Utd, I apologise.

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Down Perranporth last year we was in a situation where the Illogan Keeper was fouled by a player, bad tackle with 2 feet, i flagged for the free kick which i gave, im only a Qualified Lino but i hate 2 footed tackles for any team, Anyway ref gives free kick to Illogan. The Illogan keeper retaliated and poked the player in the eye, the ref changed his mind and gave a penalty to Porth, I asked the to refer to me on the situation but he said i will handle it when there is about 14 players arguing in the box.

Thats my input on something which happened, its all about consistency

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I'm getting fed up with all this crap saying that the Sunday league is holier (sp) than thou compared to games on a Saturday!!

the difference is that the referee's that are on Sundays actually enjoy doing the games and want to be there. Put some of the referee's that are out there on Saturdays in charge of a game on a Sunday and you'll get exactly the same response from players as saturday football, some of them just incite moans and groans from players.

referee's like Porky, Nigel Jewell, Chris (illogan Chris, can't remember his name) George Patterson are great referee's cos they act with common sense!

with regards to the Gwinnear incident, Oldasitgets, you say:

That point was reached when he was, to quote "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him". He, as any rational, intelligent human being, would want out of it. "Flight or fight". With that sort of pressure he must doubt the evidence of his own eyes and senses.

Once he's gone over that edge, you can't hold him responsible for anything that happens after.

this has had nothing to do with Gwinnear players, it was all to do with Redruth players surrounding him after he gave a goal, then he changed his mind!! how do you have respect for a referee who does that with no fundamental reason???

Another point with the Sunday league! you could have about 16 games probably max on a Sunday morning, on a Saturday there are at least 5 times that amount, out of that lot, I bet you could pick at least 16 games where the ref has had a good game, enjoyed himself without any problems from the players.

sunday football is played by the majority for a bit of fun. I played down against Halsetown (at Constantine) a couple of years ago and I said to the referee as the ball just kept flying over my head in middle of midfield "this is a great game of Sunday football isn't it" to which he replied "I'm here to referee the game not worry about the football" so even trying to have a bit of light hearted fun resulted in the referee getting all shitty on a Sunday morning!!! or do those incidents go unnoticed???

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the difference is that the referee's that are on Sundays actually enjoy doing the games and want to be there. I played down against Halsetown (at Constantine) a couple of years ago and I said to the referee as the ball just kept flying over my head in middle of midfield "this is a great game of Sunday football isn't it" to which he replied "I'm here to referee the game not worry about the football" so even trying to have a bit of light hearted fun resulted in the referee getting all shitty on a Sunday morning!!! or do those incidents go unnoticed???

The other difference is that the Sunday League actually does something to try to make it better for referees.

Have you thought that maybe there's a reason that they enjoy Sunday football and want to be there?

Of course referees have a sense of humour failure at times. Don't we all?

I'm not going to try to pretend that it's always perfect on a Sunday. The game's physical, the game's about emotions. It would be sad if players didn't get excited and say and do things that aren't appropriate. What we try to do is to make it a long way from being normal to behave like that.

The referee has just as much right to enjoy the game as do players. Never forget that.

That point was reached when he was, to quote "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him". He, as any rational, intelligent human being, would want out of it. "Flight or fight". With that sort of pressure he must doubt the evidence of his own eyes and senses.

Once he's gone over that edge, you can't hold him responsible for anything that happens after.

this has had nothing to do with Gwinnear players, it was all to do with Redruth players surrounding him after he gave a goal, then he changed his mind!! how do you have respect for a referee who does that with no fundamental reason???

Because, as I explained in the bit you quote, he's a normal human being who responds to events that this game allows to happen. He had an absolutely fundamental reason for doing just that.

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in your mind then, what was his fundamental reason for changing his decision?

we're all told as players, "the referee will never change his mind" this blows that right out the water doesn't it?

as I've said before, referees earn respect. I presume that the manager of Gwinnear has lost all respect for this one referee!

I admire your stance on refereeing in the Sunday league, but is it really that easy to replicate in the Saturday form of the game?

and lets not forget that the referee's get paid for being out there!

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I have to say as a player for both West Cornwall sides (Mining 2 and West Cornwall Sunday Prem) the respect both towards and received from refs is far better on a Sunday. Maybe it is down to the fact that we have some great refs in the Sunday league and as the Saturday leagues have more games there are in turn some poor refs there?

From what i have experienced though even if a ref has a poor game on a Sunday (which is rare but it does happen) he is still shown respect from the players. Again this may be down to the fact that Saturday football is generally our main 'Bread and butter' and Sundays are for the lads who either didnt get a game on the Sat or for players from other clubs to come and see what WCFC is all about. ( this is no disrespect for the sunday league, just how it is for us as a club, it will be different for other sides)

Either way I am a big fan of what Bill has implemented for an incentive to clubs to show refs the respect and it definately works! Even when a ref makes a mistake or a game kicks off a little bit after a late challenge (football wouldnt be football without these incidents!) everyone just gets on with it...

I've had the same ref on a Sat as I have on a Sun and they seem to enjoy reffing Sundays more too, even though it is a fairly early start!

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I'm getting fed up with all this crap saying that the Sunday league is holier (sp) than thou compared to games on a Saturday!!

the difference is that the referee's that are on Sundays actually enjoy doing the games and want to be there. Put some of the referee's that are out there on Saturdays in charge of a game on a Sunday and you'll get exactly the same response from players as saturday football, some of them just incite moans and groans from players.

referee's like Porky, Nigel Jewell, Chris (illogan Chris, can't remember his name) George Patterson are great referee's cos they act with common sense!

with regards to the Gwinnear incident, Oldasitgets, you say:

That point was reached when he was, to quote "surrounded by Redruth players who are screaming at him". He, as any rational, intelligent human being, would want out of it. "Flight or fight". With that sort of pressure he must doubt the evidence of his own eyes and senses.

Once he's gone over that edge, you can't hold him responsible for anything that happens after.

this has had nothing to do with Gwinnear players, it was all to do with Redruth players surrounding him after he gave a goal, then he changed his mind!! how do you have respect for a referee who does that with no fundamental reason???

Another point with the Sunday league! you could have about 16 games probably max on a Sunday morning, on a Saturday there are at least 5 times that amount, out of that lot, I bet you could pick at least 16 games where the ref has had a good game, enjoyed himself without any problems from the players.

sunday football is played by the majority for a bit of fun. I played down against Halsetown (at Constantine) a couple of years ago and I said to the referee as the ball just kept flying over my head in middle of midfield "this is a great game of Sunday football isn't it" to which he replied "I'm here to referee the game not worry about the football" so even trying to have a bit of light hearted fun resulted in the referee getting all shitty on a Sunday morning!!! or do those incidents go unnoticed???

in general the sunday league ref scheme has moved on a bit more in the last couple of years. I agre that we are lucky to get a lot of good refs though. That game a Tine was amusing. There was a crunching tackle about 2 mins in on 1 of our players and i said to the ref "ouch, that was a good old sunday football tackle", the ref turned to me and said "anymore talk like that and your off". Baring in mind it was one of our players that got fouled it seemed a bit harsh but refs ref the game in the way they feel is best i guess. Did have that same ref the other day and he was a little more chilled out. Just the way he does it i guess and it does make me laugh to think about it and thats what sunday footy is all about.

There are 1 or 2 newer refs in the sunday league now aswell and they will only benefit from reffing sunday league games and do a good job.

I do agree that a lot of the sunday league is played a little more light heartedly ( in div 2 anyway) but i have watched quite a few saturday games this season and cringe at some of the things that has gone on. I dont think it would be quite so easy on saturdays but the scheme thats run on sundays would help and the marks over seasons have gone up in the sunday league. Isnt an overnight fix but got to start somewhere.

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in your mind then, what was his fundamental reason for changing his decision?

we're all told as players, "the referee will never change his mind" this blows that right out the water doesn't it?

as I've said before, referees earn respect. I presume that the manager of Gwinnear has lost all respect for this one referee!

I admire your stance on refereeing in the Sunday league, but is it really that easy to replicate in the Saturday form of the game?

and lets not forget that the referee's get paid for being out there!

His fundamental reason for doing anything at that point, was the involuntary rush of adrenalin that we all get when we feel threatened. The only difference between individuals is the threshold that triggers the adrenalin rush. "Fight or flight" becomes the only option. As neither literal action was open, then the brain desperately seeks a way of getting from the immediate threat. It's what we all do. His answer then was to change the decision that brought on the threat.

No it doesn't work, no it's not a good idea but in that state none of us (me, you, anyone) make sensible decisions.

I don't know if the scheme would work in a Saturday League. Apart from the scale of things, I can't see any reason why not. We have one volunteer Committee member who is responsible for chasing everything up and communicating with the refs and the clubs (That's the key) With a larger League it may need one per Division or two.

Coincidentally, I have started talking today to a rep from a Saturday League. Early days.

Referees get paid, but if you're not enjoying it it isn't good money. Even the taxman agrees that they're not making a huge wad out of it - worth taxing. Local football refs do it because they, hopefully, enjoy it.

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Guest Bundiwilliams

why tell the tax man?????

anyway doesnt matter what involuntary reaction happens to the brain, your a ref, you make a decision you stick by it!!!!!!!

sunday league is bloody pointless anyway, what a rule dont let senior players play????

why have that rule, surely get rid of that rule and the league becomes better????

we have a respect program for refs, i have had some refs on a saturday that deserve nothing but a kick in the nuts, no common sense, no consistancy.

PORKY IS BY FAR THE BEST REF IN CORNWALL, refs need to respect players who want to win a game and it all gets ruined coz the lazy buggers give crap inconsistant decisions and most of the time dont even leave the semi circle!!!!!

but on the other hand, good scheme you have lamin that if you treat the refs well you dont pay a a fee to affiliate to your league, maybe the saturday league should follow suit, oh no i forgot they love money and would do anything for free, also a big well done with how your using technology in your league, in particular the fact you let your teams email you there team sheet.

i suggested this to two local leagues and the old gits running the leagues probably dont even know what a email is, so bloody well done with the sunday league apart from not letting senior players play :( :(

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sunday league is bloody pointless anyway, what a rule dont let senior players play????

why have that rule, surely get rid of that rule and the league becomes better????

we have a respect program for refs, i have had some refs on a saturday that deserve nothing but a kick in the nuts, no common sense, no consistancy.

I won't say what you deserve after your post!

People play Sunday League in order to enjoy themselves; and to have a competitive game of football. I doubt if people would enjoy it as much if some senior player primadonna turned up only to try and show off. Senior players are allowed to stop playing senior football; and get reinstated so they can then also play on Sunday's if they so wish; don't blame the Sunday League.

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why tell the tax man?????

Anyway doesnt matter what involuntary reaction happens to the brain, your a ref, you make a decision you stick by it!!!!!!!

sunday league is bloody pointless anyway, what a rule dont let senior players play????

why have that rule, surely get rid of that rule and the league becomes better????

we have a respect program for refs, i have had some refs on a saturday that deserve nothing but a kick in the nuts, no common sense, no consistancy.

PORKY IS BY FAR THE BEST REF IN CORNWALL, refs need to respect players who want to win a game and it all gets ruined coz the lazy buggers give crap inconsistant decisions and most of the time dont even leave the semi circle!!!!!

but on the other hand, good scheme you have lamin that if you treat the refs well you dont pay a a fee to affiliate to your league, maybe the saturday league should follow suit, oh no i forgot they love money and would do anything for free, also a big well done with how your using technology in your league, in particular the fact you let your teams email you there team sheet.

i suggested this to two local leagues and the old gits running the leagues probably dont even know what a email is, so bloody well done with the sunday league apart from not letting senior players play :(:(

What a totally mixed up load of words! Involuntary reactions happening to brain come to mind.

The taxman knows. He's decided it isn't enough to be proper income.

Senior players rule Nothing to do with the Sunday League. Cornwall County Football Association Ltd decided that rule. Slag them off? The Sunday League used to allow 2 senior players in a team untill the CCFA read the rules and said it isn't allowed. No senior players in Junior Leagues, just the same as in the Junior Cup. Otherwise, what makes it a Junior Cup Competition?

The changes to the Standard Code of Rules that Leagues are obliged to follow will, I believe, recognise the use of email and the new technology. Most Leagues are using it now.

Whether or not Refs that you've had deserve a kick anywhere is a point for discussion. May I suggest that you probably get the refs you deserve. Maybe if you treated referees properly we would get more Porkys. (Not Rhyming slang)

Thank you for the compliments. Much appreciated.

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