El Nino 9 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 ive noticed alot of unplayed fixtures due to a non fixtured referee i think teams should start having a mutual respect for each other and try to play the fixture. i know this can back fire due to a home official being bias or things getting abit to physical but i hate going to a game getting kitted up and takeing the nets back down i play junior football not proffesional so always fancy a game. i dont fancy playing 3games a week in may ur thoughts please i know this will be a split opinion but should we play without a fixtured ref ? it will happen alot more as the season on :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldasitgets Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I have strong feelings on the way we treat referees and the total failure of the "Respect" campaign as far as adult grass roots football is concerned. I can start a rant at the drop of a hat. See my post on my presentation to the F.A. on the main board. There are solutions. But not until the F.A. shifts gear and gets creative. I know the West Cornwall Sunday League is very small, but there is no reason at all why their successful "pilot" couldn't be adopted by any league. There is no problem scaling it up. We're at the stage now where we can pretty well guarantee that a ref will enjoy his game on a Sunday morning. It isn't rocket science - just the application of a bit of common sense. There, did it. without ranting hardly at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 oldasitgets, I fully agree your take on the respect scheme at grassroots level, it does not exist. with regard to your Sunday League scheme it could not work at this present time on larger leagues, a few weeks ago I was talking to Alan Wallace and for that saturday he was at least 20 officials short so there is no way that amount of officials can magically be found, in reality it will take a good few years to turn the problem around the young would be referee`s are just not there. I have also asked older players if they would consider refereeing when they finish and 98% of the replies I get is " no chance the way they get treated I could not do it". This Respect campaign is a good idea but at the moment as far as grassroot football is concerned it does not exist ,it has to start at the top and even yesterday Sir Alex was seen screaming abuse and foul language at the fourth official, so if they cannot show respect at the top we have no chance at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldasitgets Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Mr Manning, There is no way that 20 referees can be magically found. The ONLY solution is to make sure that when a referee takes up his whistle, he is treated properly so that he stays refereeing. That is the whole point of our Sunday League's scheme. There also needs to be much more logic applied to referee appointments so that new, inexperienced refs get games that are suited to their ability and experience. You can't do that without assessing how clubs treat referees. (Why on earth that isn't done as a matter of course is beyond me). If we start treating referees properly, maybe a few more players will consider doing it. I played in a game today where a "new this season" referee was in charge. He admitted that he was short of experience and support (one game mentored so far this season. ) But he thoroughly enjoyed the game and scored both teams 10 out of 10 for their sporting approach. Indeed in the Sunday League there have only been three teams marked less than 7 by a referee this season. If we can retain most of the new referees and stem the flow of referees out of the game, there won't be a problem. That 20 shortfall will disappear in a single season. (Ask Ray Brown or Martin Ault) No we can't fix it instantly. Football has made itself a major problem over that last 20 years with the stupid way that we allow players to treat referees. It's that broke that it'll take time to fix. It's taken us 5 years to sort out the system for the Sunday League that actually seems to work. That system WILL work in any other league. It won't solve the referee shortage overnight, but it may start to address the causes of the state we find ourselves in. Told you I can drop a rant at the slightest provocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Good thread here. Love 'em or hate 'em. We need ref's. I try to be fair with those we have had and have even taken the time to call one and compliment him some time after the game he took charge of. I'm a big fan of referees at this level, long may they continue. Thanks guys for what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Sorry To Sound Stupid,But Surely If You Havent Played A Game Since the 4th November,and the Weather is Good,Pitch Is Good,Just You Have To Have a Non Official Ref.....SURELY YOU'D WANT TO PLAY THE GAME!???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 You're right Stroker but one team will always say you're wrong. The losing team! It's the natural reaction. The winning team will say 'we should have played', the losing team will say the opposite mate. That's how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 oldasitgets, I am in complete agreement with you, whatever system is used be it the respect campaign or your sunday league system or both, provided it is put into practice ( as your sunday system is ) and it works it can only be good for the game and it`s officials. My basic concern is that with such a huge lack of officials for saturdays at the present time it will take several seasons for the problem to be solved and I do not need to ask Martin as he is a good friend of mine and we have chatted on the respect campaign in the past. I only hope for the sake of football ( a game I have played and officiated in for the last 44years, so I must love the game ) it`s problem with lack of officials can be turned around quickly for if not I fear for the game at grass roots level, which I feel is a concern of yours as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adlestrop Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Very well said,Paul.Do you think that there just too many teams at the lower level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The General Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Mind you I may take up the whistle, £15 quid minimum a game, 4 to 5 games a week at the end of the season tax free. In times od recession perhaps they should adnertise in the situations vacant column! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblueref Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Mind you I may take up the whistle, £15 quid minimum a game, 4 to 5 games a week at the end of the season tax free. In times od recession perhaps they should adnertise in the situations vacant column! sorry to p@ss on your chips mate,but it's not tax free. All income is supposed to be declared, whether refs do or not is up to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The General Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Supposed Skyblue key word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Adlestrop, as to are there too many teams at lower levels, I think that putting any restriction on any team that wishes to form and play in a league would be a big mistake. Who is anybody to judge whether a team would be allowed to play, to me football should be and is open to anyone wishing to play so provided they meet the leagues criteria then they should be allowed to compete. Would it be fair to stop people playing and enjoying the game of football. The General, I wish I recieved the payment for my services that some players get in the leagues I officiate on, and as to tax, for an official below contrib league level it is classed as expenses so it does not need to be declared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Nino 9 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 i think we have the right layout of junior leauges as this forum shows there are alot of keen footballers and teams in junior football just need the refs :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robbie Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 While I appreciate there is a shortage of men in black, I think that three games so far this season, whereby we at Tms have travelled twice & got kitted up & not had a ref, and St Buryan travel all the way upto us for nothing is a bit much. Not in as much as there are'nt enough refs, but the fact that we're not told by either the allocated ref or the man who appoints them, that he won't be there before a number of people make the effort to get there, mark out pitches etc etc. Respect goes both ways, so come on, let people know, there's just no excuse with the modern technology at hand. Nobody has to go a mile to a phonebox that's been burnt out anymore do they? The ref gets travelling expenses, perhaps we should send them our wasted expenses on a no show, maybe they'd then have the common decency to let someone know then!! Merry Christmas to everybody, it's only a game, and it would be nice to have one sometime soon. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 You're right Stroker but one team will always say you're wrong. The losing team! It's the natural reaction. The winning team will say 'we should have played', the losing team will say the opposite mate. That's how it is. Either Team Could of Lost or Won obviously,But We Offered To Have a Ref,So if we'd Of Lost We'd Have No One To blame But ourselves,Think its sad,That Throughout all this Rubbish weather,Not many games have been Played Yet When your offered to play on a good Day Good pitch With Willing Refs,Then WHY WASTE THE OPPORTUNITY!? Sorry All the opposition had to say was,look we'll play the first half if we find it biased We'll Not turn out for half time. Surely You would be keen enough to play 90 minutes whenever the opportunity Arises! Unless thats just me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighairydave Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 What about 1st half with one teams ref and second half with the other teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 What about 1st half with one teams ref and second half with the other teams? Exactly My point mate surely you would be able to come to some sort of arrangement with the two managers,But NO the visiting manager rings his chairman,Who Says don't play the Fixture!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungPercy Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Going back to some of the earlier posts, when it was suggested that you cannot just magically find 20 refs, I find that a problem may be that to become a ref you have to pay a certain fee (cant remember how much) but it was enough to put me off. I would do the referees course if it was cheaper, although as a player i would not referee matches as i would prefer to play. Maybe if the CCFA were to reduce the cost of taking the course then more people may be encourage to become a referee, as they have to buy the referee kit, book, carda etc after passing aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Nino 9 Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 What about 1st half with one teams ref and second half with the other teams? Exactly My point mate surely you would be able to come to some sort of arrangement with the two managers,But NO the visiting manager rings his chairman,Who Says don't play the Fixture!! calm down stroker we had a good game of wembly instead but it is frustrating especially when u put the nets up but it was there choice mate and u got to respect it i think it will happen again as the season goes by shame realy as i pay to play not to put nets up :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 YoungPercy, the cost is only part of the problem, the main problem is retention of existing referee`s they are just packing it in, I would think that over the last 3 seasons we have lost 100 referee`s and those packing it in are not being replaced hence the shortfall. I can only speak for myself but I nearly called it a day last season for all the abuse and hassle I began to wonder is it worth it, but I do love the game so quickly put those thoughts to the back of my mind and carried on, but for the first time in a long refereeing career those thoughts are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighairydave Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Its up to the clubs to make change. If a rule was voted in that both clubs must mutally agree a referee for any game that doesnt have one appointed and that matches cannot be cancelled due to no referee like what happens here in Birmingham maybe that will solve part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I agree there bighairydave, from where I came from all junior leagues had a clause (not Santa) whereby in the failure of an appointed referee to show up or no referee it was stated in the league rules that the clubs "WILL" agree on a person to referee the game. Note the word "will". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hutchspur Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 We at mount ambrose have had no problem with the referees we have had this season (apart from the non qualified numpty we had on sat!!!). The one thing that has really wound me up this season is that we have had referees confirmed for FOUR of our matches only for them not to turn up. I got nothing against referees and can understand the shortage and sympathise with that but when they just dont show up without even a phone call......We have had the same ref not show up TWICE and once for th sunday league team i play for!! We can have hundreds of referees but only the ones that can actually be bothered to show up are worth having!! :clapper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Norry Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 there's an old saying,,when a refs right..he's wrong,,and when he's wrong he's right..they will never please both sides all of the time,that's what makes the game so interesting..we all talk about what the ref missed during the game, and after and the hotspots they can create during a game...but rest assured football without these guys,will soon fly down the pan...if they are shown no RESPECT.AND THE NUMBERS WILL SLOWLY DWINDLE AWAY.that is a fact...we moan every week that games are being not played because of the shortage....well what do you think would happen,if a ref has to endure week in and week out.the kind of abuse,and sometimes physical assaults,that are sometimes heaped on the guys....yes it's easy to blame the ref for our defeats......but soon there will be no one to blame,,but ourselves,,cut some slack,and get back their confidence to help fulfill the fixtures...or they will become like dinosuars......EXTINCT!!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Eddy Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 why not bring in a rule that all teams must have a qualified ref !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not just any team that joins a league.it works in some leagues.if you cannot play because of no ref both teams lose the points. then you would see how many games would be played.if the ref is free then you have a qualified assistant for the ref. win win situation because the ref has some qualified help during the game. :c: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraggle Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There is nothing worse than turning up for a game on a Saturday and there being no ref. As Stroker said, it’s frustrating when you go a long period without a game, and all us players are keen to play every Saturday, even more so after a month without a game. But as mentioned, there is no easy solution to this. It’s a strange argument, but in Cricket the same problem is experienced, especially below the top 2-3 divisions in the county. But that doesn’t mean games below that level are called off. Whilst each team bats, they provide one or two of the playing team to umpire. Some teams below the top leagues have someone who will happily umpire for them week after week, and games played in these conditions are the 'norm', players just agree and get on with a game of cricket. Why can the same attitude not be taken by all teams with regards to someone offering there services to ref a game? At the end of the day, we all play junior football at the weekend to enjoy it; there is nothing enjoyable about turning up to a game and it being cancelled shortly before kick off. I understand the arguments for and against my opinion, but at the end of the day if teams agree on someone, whether it be a supporter or a member of the club (playing or non playing) to officiate the game, it keeps 22 men happy for a Saturday afternoon and it stops the fixture build up towards the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monty Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 5 more referees qualified on sunday 13th december 2009 so this should help a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There is nothing worse than turning up for a game on a Saturday and there being no ref. As Stroker said, it’s frustrating when you go a long period without a game, and all us players are keen to play every Saturday, even more so after a month without a game. But as mentioned, there is no easy solution to this. It’s a strange argument, but in Cricket the same problem is experienced, especially below the top 2-3 divisions in the county. But that doesn’t mean games below that level are called off. Whilst each team bats, they provide one or two of the playing team to umpire. Some teams below the top leagues have someone who will happily umpire for them week after week, and games played in these conditions are the 'norm', players just iuntagree and get on with a game of cricket. Why can the same attitude not be taken by all teams with regards to someone offering there services to ref a game? At the end of the day, we all play junior football at the weekend to enjoy it; there is nothing enjoyable about turning up to a game and it being cancelled shortly before kick off. I understand the arguments for and against my opinion, but at the end of the day if teams agree on someone, whether it be a supporter or a member of the club (playing or non playing) to officiate the game, it keeps 22 men happy for a Saturday afternoon and it stops the fixture build up towards the end of the season. I Totally Understand you here Mate,As i play cricket in the summer,This is what i was trying to get across, Surely We are all intelligent enough to,Agree on some sort of soloution,Seeing as the home team went to the trouble of putting the nets up,And The Away team were all well and happy to have 3/4 of an hour Practice,then when they didnt want to practice no more,there manager goes "oh we Don't Want to play!" because they reckon they have ruined their chances in the League,They don't want to balls up their chances in the Cup...Well...I'm sorry people but,You are ballsing it up by not getting any bloody Practice in!! Grr Grinds my gears....Anyway look forward To Playing THREEMILESTONE in The Re-arranged Fixture *LICKS LIPS* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monty Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 There are just too many leagues and teams for such a small county and not enough people taking up the whistle. the weather does not help as too many games are getting called off when we could have played more evening games at the start of the season. And lastly far too many cup competittions. :smiley20: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Monty you are on the right lines but if read one of my other posts on the subject you will see that I estimate over the last 3 seasons over 100 referee`s have failed to re register, they have decided that it`s just not worth the hassle any more so they pack it in. So mainly it`s a question of referee`s leaving and not enough people willing to take the job on and if it carries on at this rate even if you halve the numbers of teams playing you are still going to have a shortfall of officials. Also this is not just a Cornwall problem it`s happening all over the country hence the FA`s respect campaign designed to reverse the trend, but if you read oldasitgets report from his Wembley trip that respect campaign is non existant at grass root level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Eddy Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 monty re"5 more refs qualifying" how many of these will actually ref in men's football most saturday's. when i took my course it was through the youth system were the club paid for me and i refereed their youth games, as i was involved on a saturday with a men's team. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telithowitis Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 My then 15 y.o son qualified a few years back but didn't re register at the end of the first season because of verbal abuse at 6 a side youth games including the managers who had asked him to ref. People need to wake up and smell the roses. We play/watch junior football because we enjoy it and generally aren't that good! How do we expect the ref to get everything right as well when we as players don't. Unless the refs enjoy it they are going to walk away. Give them some respect, and accept they will make mistakes the same as the players do every week. Whats going to happen if the 5 ref experiment is invoked by UEFA and more refs move up to do that? On a practical basis I think each junior club should have to have a qualified ref so games aren't cancelled. This would also help the lino standard when they are not required. :c: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Monty Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 monty re"5 more refs qualifying" how many of these will actually ref in men's football most saturday's. when i took my course it was through the youth system were the club paid for me and i refereed their youth games, as i was involved on a saturday with a men's team. All 5 will referee in all competitions that allows a level 7 referee mens, ladies and youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccer Follower Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well done Lee and the other 4 new referees :clapper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldasitgets Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Now we need for the new Referees' Appointments Officer to allocate them to the right games. A new ref needs to have the opportunity to gain confidence - not have it all hammered out of him. Of course, as we have no system to assess clubs' attitudes to refs, that's going to be a difficult task! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Eddy Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 excellent news monty long may they last :clapper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopsie Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'll do the course BUT only after I've seen that I've got nothing to offer someone next season on the pitch.. Surely fair enough?. :c: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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