Cornwall Senior Cup Farce

[Hoofer]

What was a pretty ordinary match with Saltash deservedly and comfortably cruising to victory was suddenly turned on its head and into a complete farce with an appalling display of unsporting behaviour and an even more appalling decision from the match officials.

The bottom line is that Saltash were mugged by incompetent amateur officials who got carried away on the big stage. Hang your heads in shame as everyone who watched yesterday’s match and who understands the game knows deep down that Saltash were wronged.

Make no mistake the all too often critical 3rd goal would NEVER have been given if higher grade officials were in charge. This one single diabolical decision completely altered the dynamics and momentum of the game, end of story.

Whoever is responsible for deciding the match officials for Cornwall’s most prestigious football match of the season should take note that a higher grade and more professional official is required for a game of this magnitude if they want to avoid a repeat farcical in the future.

Finally, I congratulate all those at St Austell Football Club who have been responsible for putting the club back on the tracks and in the right direction again after spending recent times in the doldrums but don’t forget that it matters not how many times or how hard you polish that trophy it going to remain tarnished until next Easter.

[Tynan's_Dad]

He headed it out of the keepers hands and tapped it into the net, yes?

I thought the rule was that if the keeper only has one hand on the ball then you are able to play it whereas if the keeper has two hands on the ball you cannot.

Maybe the keeper only had one hand on the ball?

[Martin Eddy]

the rule says the keeper has to be in control of the ball :c:

[King Kenny 7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OUNuMSG1RI

Make your own minds up from this

[Hoofer]

Why not make your own minds up after reading the FIFA rules.

I think you will find that FIFA rules state that "A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball:

- while the ball is between his hands or between his hands and any surface (e.g ground, own body)

- while holding the ball in his outstretched open hand

- while in the act of bouncing it on the ground or tossing it into the air"

Saltash were cheated out of victory, end of story.

[Eric Fish]

Postman pat

The game has LAWS not rules!!!!!!!!!!!

[legend15]

the goalie has to have two hands on it else the player can take it off him with out fouling him

[retired for now]

st a 2nds. i maybe wrong here but looking at that clip on youtube i think i remember that the laws were changed after the controversy of that goal. im not sure what the law is on it though but think that if the keeper has even one hand on the ball he is deemed to be in control of it. I guess if its still a bit undecided how much control there is it will be judged by the referees discretion. Lile i said im not sure and didnt see the incident in question but if the ball was knocked from the keepers hands similar to the clip then its illegal. end of the day though, its how the cookie crumbles. such fine lines games are often decided although admitidly not quite like that usually

[Argyle Fan]

The previous post referring to the FIFA laws missed an important bit:

"A goalkeeper is considered to be in control

of the ball:

• while the ball is between his hands or between his hand and any

surface (e.g. ground, own body)

• while holding the ball in his outstretched open hand

• while in the act of bouncing it on the ground or tossing it into the air

When a goalkeeper has gained possession of the ball with his hands,

he cannot be challenged by an opponent."

I would interpret this to mean that the first St Austell goal should have been disallowed - but if the referee didn't see it then he couldn't disallow it.

[Dave Deacon]

But there's another question - how did all three match officials, and the 4th off the pitch, miss it? Those of us who have commented saw it - what were they looking at?

[Tynan's_Dad]

I would imagine the referee, like most of the players, was running out getting into position for the kick from his hands. A good referee would probably rn backwards but if he wasn't, or a player ran in the way he cannot give it.

Similarly the lino in that half would also be getting back into position. However, with the furthest St. Austell player behind the keeper he would surely have stayed watching the action that followed.

The lino in the other half would probably have been moving up watching the players moving into the St. Austell half ready for the kick. May have been watching the line of players?

No idea on the 4th official. Didn't even realise there was one or where he was stood.

I would imagine that at least one of them would have seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OUNuMSG1RI

Make your own minds up from this

And there is this one!

[cockerkneeboy]

You cannot blame St Austell or the player who scored their first goal as he used his initiative and got away with it (Fair play I say)

If you are talking LAWS or RULES then why is it that SENIOR players get away with so much more than there JUNIOR counterparts then, Yes I am talking about some of the challenges made during the final that went unpunished and also a few swear words directed towards the officials which in JUNIOR football gets severely punished and costs players money, I don’t claim to know all the ins and outs about the game but surely LAWS and RULES are made to be kept and it should be the same for whichever level you play at, Maybe the officials should be looked at and the f.a could act if they feel they need to (Which I doubt) but at the end of the day your never going to get the perfect game of football with perfect officials and players alike

LAWS and RULES for one LAWS and RULES for another that is just the way it is

I’m not quite sure that you can say Saltash were robbed because if they had defended a little better then St Austell would not have created the chances that led to their goals in the first place, I don’t support either team but I thought it was a decent game and had its ups and downs just like any other, Credit to both teams I say for a decent game of football in what was a cold, wet and windy day

Now don’t go getting on my case about this please as that is just my view which you may or may not agree with but we are all allowed to have one and I have just as you have done

Finally, I congratulate all those at St Austell Football Club who have been responsible for putting the club back on the tracks and in the right direction again after spending recent times in the doldrums but don’t forget that it matters not how many times or how hard you polish that trophy it going to remain tarnished until next Easter.

Whichever way you look at it and no matter what you say the SENIOR cup will be at St Austell until next easter so they can polish it all they like

[Guest plainmoor]

At the end of the day 2 of the officials cocked up big time, the referee for not running backwards keeping an eye on the area of the field where the ball is, the nearest lino for not keeping his body faceing the field of play and watching hte field instead of pre-empting what he thought might happen and run off back up the field with his head down, the other lino can not alter the course of events from his line some 65 yards away and the 4th man can not interveen with a matter that he is not allowed to get involved in.

The goal should have been disallowed as the keeper had the ball in his control the attacking player should have been given a yellow for unsportsmanship like behavior or delaying the restart, take your pick.

Legend15 the goalkeeper does not have to have two hands on the ball for it to be under his control, it's armchair pundits like you that give football a raw deal.

So who were these match officials anyhow?

[The Gooner]

Why not make your own minds up after reading the FIFA rules.

I think you will find that FIFA rules state that "A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball:

- while the ball is between his hands or between his hands and any surface (e.g ground, own body)

- while holding the ball in his outstretched open hand

- while in the act of bouncing it on the ground or tossing it into the air"

Saltash were cheated out of victory, end of story.

You have to take the rough with the smooth Hoofer.

The referee that took charge against Dobwalls at you place in an earlier round was so one sided towards your team that it was a waste of time the opponents turning up.

I am not saying that his poor decisions changed the final outcome of the game but merely pointing out that as referees are only human the make mistakes or maybe are not always totally impartial?

[B Manning]

Obviously Plaimoor you are a top class referee from reading those words of wisdom like wot you wrote, so i must say I look forward to watching you officiate in the near future. If you could let us know where and when we can see you in perfect imaculate action I would appreciate that, thanks in anticipation.

[Dave Deacon]

Unfortunately B Manning we have not heard from too many referees about this subject and so what's your view on the incident. I appreciate you may not have been there, but I think by now you have a pretty vivid picture as to what happened!

[quiksilver]

Ok so the goal that 50% of people feel should not have been given made the score 2-1. That still meant st austell needed two more goals. Were the next 2 goals scored the referees fault as well? Saltash should have defended a 2-1 lead better, then no one would be droning on about weather it is against the rules/unsportsman like way of scoring first goal.

The truth is saltash threw it away by being taking their minds off the game once that fair/unfair goal was scored. If at 2-1 saltash players concentrated on the game ahead, they would have won 2-1.

[B Manning]

Hi Dave, as you say i was not there so without actually witnessing the incident I am reluctant to speculate on it. I do feel perhaps that the referee in running back to get into position (the same with the assistant) missed seeing the incident, in that case if the officials did not see it then there was no action they could have taken on it. I will also add that it must have taken a lot of guts for the official knowing that possibly he had missed something to allow the goal and not to blow the whistle and award the goalkeeper a free kick using guesswork. So without actually being there but reading all the posts that is the best I can do in way of comment.

[Guest]

A typical non response. You couldn't even bother to answer the question put along with all the other points. Irrespective of whether the officials didnt want to get themselves dirty by falling over through running backwards - what is your take on a goalkeeper holding the ball in one hand and having it knocked out by an opposing player.

That is a very simple question requiring a very simple answer. You don't even have to refer it to this match.

[B Manning]

ECPL as I said I was not there and from that it`s easy to deduce that I did not see the incident and cannot make any judgement as to whether the ball was in the goalkeepers control or not, from the posts I get the impression that the officals did not see the incident, I then have based any comments on that presumption. I`m sorry that you would like me to wildly guess at what happened and then give a definitive answer but I try only to base any judgement on what I actually see. As you would like me to comment on the fact that if I as a referee I felt the goalkeeper had control of the ball then of course a foul has been committed and I would have awarded the goalkeeper a free kick.

[Dave Deacon]

As you would like me to comment on the fact that if I as a referee I felt the goalkeeper had control of the ball then of course a foul has been committed and I would have awarded the goalkeeper a free kick.

I think that pretty much answers the question thank you :D

[Guest Cornishdave1980]

To offer another officials perspective, I would have to ask why neither official, in that half, saw the incident? as normal practice(dependent on fitness) suggests when taking up position from a goal mouth incident the referee should try, when possible, to run backwards keeping their eye on what was the immediate action area. This is not text book just good practice! This would also apply to the Assistant.

I’m afraid it appears that the ref has taken his eye off the game for a split second and unfortunately for him and Saltash missed a major incident.

But as B Manning rightly states if if neither the Ref of his assistents dont see the incident then they can't stop play for it.

[Guest]

Thank you, got there in the end

[Hoofer]

If the referee or his assistant in that half of the pitch didn't for whatever reason see this MAJOR incident that changed the course of local sporting history then why didn't the ref simply use some commonsense and consult with his other assistants who may have seen the incident (or even perhaps gauge things as well by speaking to both the players involved) before making a decision?

What did he think happened? Did he assume that the goalie threw the ball into his own net and so gave a goal?

I would bet that he was running away from the goal area (whether backwards or forwards) because a passage of play have ended and he thought that the goalkeeper was within 6 seconds of releasing the ball from his possession because he was in full control of it.

I also bet that if he wasn't 100% sure of what happened then he had a very very strong idea after gauging the situation and consulting with his assistant and simply made the wrong decision because he didn't know the rules.

If the decision were simply a judgement decision such as "did the whole of the ball cross the line" then none of this debate would be happening. However, its not about that, its about a ref of an apparantly decent level making a serious misjudgement in a match that was very important for very many people. The majority of people who enjoy football at this level have no idea about the effort levels and resources required by a club and its management that must go into putting a team together that is capable of winning the cornwall senior cup.

Bottomline is the ref and that assistant didn't do their job properly which changed the result of the game.

I accept that refs will make mistakes but as enforcers of the rules they have to know them. Sometimes refs do make public apologies. I wonder whether this one will?

[Dave Deacon]

Sometimes refs do make public apologies. I wonder whether this one will?

It would be nice to think so, but I wouldn't wait too long :)

[kempy]

If the referee or his assistant in that half of the pitch didn't for whatever reason see this MAJOR incident that changed the course of local sporting history then why didn't the ref simply use some commonsense and consult with his other assistants who may have seen the incident (or even perhaps gauge things as well by speaking to both the players involved) before making a decision?

What did he think happened? Did he assume that the goalie threw the ball into his own net and so gave a goal?

I would bet that he was running away from the goal area (whether backwards or forwards) because a passage of play have ended and he thought that the goalkeeper was within 6 seconds of releasing the ball from his possession because he was in full control of it.

I also bet that if he wasn't 100% sure of what happened then he had a very very strong idea after gauging the situation and consulting with his assistant and simply made the wrong decision because he didn't know the rules.

If the decision were simply a judgement decision such as "did the whole of the ball cross the line" then none of this debate would be happening. However, its not about that, its about a ref of an apparantly decent level making a serious misjudgement in a match that was very important for very many people. The majority of people who enjoy football at this level have no idea about the effort levels and resources required by a club and its management that must go into putting a team together that is capable of winning the cornwall senior cup.

Bottomline is the ref and that assistant didn't do their job properly which changed the result of the game.

I accept that refs will make mistakes but as enforcers of the rules they have to know them. Sometimes refs do make public apologies. I wonder whether this one will?

There are no rules in football just laws!! But i will go away and remember the cup that was ( won ) but ? I cannot even bring myself to say well done either! as the supporters were a bloody disgrace! :c:

[Anita]

I accept that refs will make mistakes but as enforcers of the rules they have to know them. Sometimes refs do make public apologies. I wonder whether this one will?

what would you like him to apologise for??? Being human??? Making what in your opinion was a mistake??? Not knowing the 'rules' of football ????

If your so perfect and your so inhuman that you never make mistakes see you in the middle next season Cornish football needs super refs who will never make a mistake who will see everything from every angle and who if he thinks something happened will give it.

Its over and done with now, no amount of moaning and bitching about the officials will change that, the only thing it might change is the amount of refs we have next season.

Enjoy the rest of the season everyone :c:

[Guest Sam Boston]

Well said Anita :clapper:

[kempy]

Well said Anita

Why do you girlies all stick together? :c:

[Dave Deacon]

what would you like him to apologise for???

Isn't that quite obvious? On behalf of himself and his fellow match officials on the day - one of them surely should have been watching the action.

This is actually where it would help matters if referees did speak after the match about things - wouldn't it be absolutely brilliant for everyone if we were to hear from Mr Oldaker on how he saw things unfold. What chance I get him on the radio this Saturday?

Is it worth giving him an open invitation?

[Guest Sam Boston]

Ha ha Kempy you're such a funny, macho guy!

[Anita]

On behalf of himself and his fellow match officials on the day - one of them surely should have been watching the action.

This is actually where it would help matters if referees did speak after the match about things

If every ref was to stay behind after a game to explain everything that supporters saw wrong during the game the ref would never get home. :P

[Dave Deacon]

Managers and players do!

[kempy]

Ha ha Kempy you're such a funny, macho guy!

Well i thought you would have a sense of humour?! well selective one maybe!? lol

[Guest Sam Boston]

I have an awesome sense of humour Kempy as well you know - that just wasn't funny. Of course Anita and I are going to back each other up, it's not like any of you guys will!

[metts]

well reading all the posts on here i feel the need to reply .this is what makes our game so good , yes it was missed but put ur minds back to old trafford and im a man utd supporter the spurs goal was 2 foot over the line , it is not something new but i back the refs and linesperson 200% he gave at the moment what he thought was good , things happen in football , there is no way ever he cheated or did any thing wrong he simply gave as he saw fit in that moment , the ref backs the lines person the lines person missed it as he did at alltrafford , that is football over the whole game st austell won and im so pleased for glyn and the guys but im gutted for stalash who could have won it against truro last season if u remember ! footballs a great game full off views, i think the refs are great are they the best who knows ? but iv never known a ref cheat they simply give what they see not what you see , give them some respect that comes with age guys we all have views but so do those guys, and the result stands and its a fantastic one well done , im sure the game was not just deceided on that point . iv seen saltash train and ill put them along side bodmin as the top 2 sides in cornall , both sides played well one sides wins one sides loses but would i change football or the refs never ever , im happy with thr refs lines persons and what ever teams play, footballs a great thing guys dont spoil it ok mettz ,

[Hoofer]

metts, the spurs v man u incident was a judgement decision. if that assistant thought the ball had crossed the line then the goal would have been given no question.

the saltash v st austell incient was completely different. the probability is the ref had a complete or very good understanding of what happened but allowed the goal to stand. he allowed the goal to stand as he didn't know the rules of the game.

i'm sorry but i can not accept that a ref of a decent level in charge of a game of this magnitude and importance allowed this goal to stand.

up and down devon and cornwall clubs on a saturday afternoon have to accept the quality of official that turns up. in many if not most cases the standard is below acceptable. however, go up a level to the western league and the quality and professionalism of official is significantly better.

those responsible for picking the officals for such important games as the cornwall senior cup final should protect their reputations by ensuring that a cup final in the future doesn't turn into a farce again.

[Dave Deacon]

go up a level to the western league and the quality and professionalism of official is significantly better

Don't wish to disappoint you Hoofer, but Mr Oldaker refs at least at Southern League, Division One level - he was recently in the middle for the Truro v Windsor evening match.

[kempy]

I have an awesome sense of humour Kempy as well you know - that just wasn't funny. Of course Anita and I are going to back each other up, it's not like any of you guys will!

Gosh i have rattled a cage!! But typing does not really have the same humour does it? And why do you need to be backed up anyway? :(

[Guest Cornishdave1980]

If the referee or his assistant in that half of the pitch didn't for whatever reason see this MAJOR incident that changed the course of local sporting history then why didn't the ref simply use some commonsense and consult with his other assistants who may have seen the incident (or even perhaps gauge things as well by speaking to both the players involved) before making a decision?

What did he think happened? Did he assume that the goalie threw the ball into his own net and so gave a goal?

I would bet that he was running away from the goal area (whether backwards or forwards) because a passage of play have ended and he thought that the goalkeeper was within 6 seconds of releasing the ball from his possession because he was in full control of it.

I also bet that if he wasn't 100% sure of what happened then he had a very very strong idea after gauging the situation and consulting with his assistant and simply made the wrong decision because he didn't know the rules.

If the decision were simply a judgement decision such as "did the whole of the ball cross the line" then none of this debate would be happening. However, its not about that, its about a ref of an apparantly decent level making a serious misjudgement in a match that was very important for very many people. The majority of people who enjoy football at this level have no idea about the effort levels and resources required by a club and its management that must go into putting a team together that is capable of winning the cornwall senior cup.

Bottomline is the ref and that assistant didn't do their job properly which changed the result of the game.

I accept that refs will make mistakes but as enforcers of the rules they have to know them. Sometimes refs do make public apologies. I wonder whether this one will?

Yes the referee could have consulted his team, but simply put none of them signalled him therefore you are asking the referee and his team to consult and make a descision based on something they didn't see, which is completely incorrect. If you don't see it you can't give it!!!!!

[Hoofer]

surprised more than disappointed at that news dave!

i know that refs are often assessed during matches but do you know if they are assessed on their theoretical knowledge? i would assume they must be.

[truros mr mourinho]

go up a level to the western league and the quality and professionalism of official is significantly better

Don't wish to disappoint you Hoofer, but Mr Oldaker refs at least at Southern League, Division One level - he was recently in the middle for the Truro v Windsor evening match.

your right dave.he was at truro and he was crap that day too :c:

[St Darren]

Dave, come on, everyone knows that you're not allowed to talk to the majority of refs, they're deemed far more significant than the game of football that has just happened!

Obviously you've got the others that you can have a chat too, but then, they're generally the good ones!!!

Let Phil Avis ref our games every week and I'd be a happy man!

[Guest Cornishdave1980]

surprised more than disappointed at that news dave!

i know that refs are often assessed during matches but do you know if they are assessed on their theoretical knowledge? i would assume they must be.

i can't answer for the CCFA but my county holds monthly training aswell as the official annual promotion/training, furthermore once you reach L5 you are required yearly to complete a fitness test and a theory test.

[gillo10]

Dave, come on, everyone knows that you're not allowed to talk to the majority of refs, they're deemed far more significant than the game of football that has just happened!

Obviously you've got the others that you can have a chat too, but then, they're generally the good ones!!!

Let Phil Avis ref our games every week and I'd be a happy man!

The northern fella from St Just area, absolutely excellent ref who talked and explained any descion he gave if you asked him. And not in the slightest bit patronising or ignorant.

Unlike Navy boy Ivor...

Think Dave is right, ref can only give what he sees!

[isaac rosenberg]

Phil Avis is a top man....I'm agreeing with you again, St Darren !

Kempy, don't let the handbag-dancers repress you. They've already tried to repress me, on account of my overtaking them in the Prediction League, but I wouldn't have it. But I must be fair, the more I read, the more it seems the tattoos are the brains of the outfit ! I suppose you can only spend so much time spooning Night Nurse down Alex Arquati before it turns the brain !

[Michael Rabone]

Is this the same referee that had a bit of a problem spotting the ball a few feet out of play for the final goal in the Truro/W&E game not long ago?

He's had a bit of a nightmare really. Mistakes can be forgiven, however, when does it get to a point where incompetence starts to become a consideration? Major mistakes over a short period of time may be indicative of a wider problem, surely?

[truros mr mourinho]

Is this the same referee that had a bit of a problem spotting the ball a few feet out of play for the final goal in the Truro/W&E game not long ago?

He's had a bit of a nightmare really. Mistakes can be forgiven, however, when does it get to a point where incompetence starts to become a consideration? Major mistakes over a short period of time may be indicative of a wider problem, surely?

mike it was more than a few feet out heee

Is this the same referee that had a bit of a problem spotting the ball a few feet out of play for the final goal in the Truro/W&E game not long ago?

He's had a bit of a nightmare really. Mistakes can be forgiven, however, when does it get to a point where incompetence starts to become a consideration? Major mistakes over a short period of time may be indicative of a wider problem, surely?

mike it was more than a few feet out heee

i kicked it back in :lol:

[Michael Rabone]

Ha ha, I hope you put down for the assist! You did a great job to clear the advertising boards though...!