Is enough enough?

[pointers]

After many games being cancelled this weekend due to lack of referees is it now time for the CCFA to take action? Is enough being done to retain the current referees we have? I know they've tried to recruit, but surely it is just as important to keep what you've got too?

How can this be done that's the question, there is only one real answer, up their match fees. I know many will read this and already be thinking how can clubs afford this in the current climate. Well to my knowledge some officials in the Trelawny league get £18 a game plus mileage, say £25 in total a game as many officials will be local. That's £12.50 a team, probably less than £1 a player with rolling subs etc! Even if you upped it to £2 per player many officials would be less inclined to just put the whistle down especially if they are not enjoying it anymore due to the amount of abuse they receive. It needs to be worthwhile which currently for many it isn't!

If you did the above referees would be very hesitant to 'give up' refereeing, they may even end up relying on the money which would ensure they'd be more refs! However many players are on each team sheet prior to ko, double it, there's your match fee, both home and away teams pay every week.

Things are tough for clubs at the min granted, but stability is key, and if a club is not financially stable they should not be playing, before people say 'well what about by the time you buy line marker, petrol, fee's to enter the leagues and cups', you should of thought about that long before moaning about paying the men who ensure games happen a couple of extra quid a game! It would be pointless having all I have just listed if you do not have anyone to officiate the games! More fund raising needed, more push for sponsorships, players tuck into their after match beer tokens instead of moaning!

There will always be referees, but just how many we have is decreasing each week, the incentive just isn't there currently, and before some smart arse says 'well their hourly rate is above min wage'....please don't!

I have never been an official and will certainly not unless they need a man in a rocking chair in the middle of the pitch, but I fear for the game in Cornwall, and it needs to be addressed.

[Halfback]

Im not sure paying a ref more fees or expenses is the long term way to solve the ref shortage. Im sure most referees come into the job because they want to be involved in the game, not how much they will get paid.

Personally, I feel the sooner the minority of players or officials / spectators, give a little more respect to the man in black, the majority of players will look forward to having a match next week, knowing there will be a ref appointed.

Further more,,, im not sure if any "laws" of the game have changed,, I seem to remember many moons ago,, foul and abusive language was a sending off offense. As a long retired player, we had a ref in junior football who was a vicar,(no longer with us),, but before any match got started, every player knew where they stood ,,,,any swearing,, ur off !!.

Maybe the buck stops with the FA to clamp down on swearing and respect,, we can all "lip read" players and managers every time we turn the tele on !!.

As a newly qualified ref in 1981, my fees were £1.50,,, county youth games, I gave my services foc, because I wanted to stay involved in the game,, now in my ancient years, I really wish I could still be involved lol,,

Like most players, I look forward to my Saturday evenings , but just have a thought for that ref you had on a Saturday afternoon,, who just maybe at home writing reports about issuing red or yellow cards for giving his services that afternoon,, some may wonder why there is a ref shortage, I wonder why !!!

Refs are only human,, they make mistakes as do any player, be it missed too many goals or let in too many, come on guys, give him a break, just my opinion ,,,rant over,, !!

[Bruegel the Elder]

Halfback makes a good point which has been repeated on these forums to exhaustion without the associations, leagues or officials managing to get a grip on the foul and abusive language front. A thread today on the Trelawny/Dutchy forum, while discussing cancelations of games due to the absence of a referee, suggests that a member of each team is trained in the noble art of refereeing. Last year the CCFA were kind enough to provide free (or heavily subsidised) training and equipment, if this could be repeated then for junior football at least this could be a solution. Not an ideal solution I admit, but it would at least get games on.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Stop the abuse will stop the drain of referee's its that simple. Nothing whatsoever to do with money.

[Richard Chown]

Pointers it's nice for you to begin a engaging debate.

Officiating matches isn't about money. If it is, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. I do however think referees should be rewarded financially for giving up their time. I'm not registered this year but if called upon to officiate I do so out of love of the game. I will accept millage but hand back the fee to the clubs to put towards funding their clubs.

As a chairman of a Junior football club any increase of match official fees would have major implications on how much we charge subscriptions to players each season. If we could we would ask for nothing from players but we have to add up all the bills (Affiliation, insurance, ground maintenance, match fees etc) and divide it all up over x amount of games but this still doesn't cover costs. As a club though various means such as fund raising we subsidise football being played.

I wish I could bring the cost down more for players but the reality is costs are increasing.

To answer you question, it isn't about money. In a game were the governing body The FA is saying it's all about participation they are not backing up at grassroots level.

The fact is in Cornish football their are too many teams not enough referees. The leagues are not waking up to the reality that every week teams are without match officials.

My solution for the Trelawny League in West Cornwall. Have a season break in stopping new teams entering the league. Scrap Div 6 (5 in Name). Put those teams equally throughout the divisions. Increase evening games at start of season early. The initial start of the Senior Cup have a weekend break (always short of match officials for the last 10 years).

For the CCFA, come down hard on discipline from Senior football down to Junior football.

Only today I witnessed a referee allow a player swear using the f word right in his face and do nothing about it, only for him to do the same to me when I made a goal kick decision on the line calling me a "fuc**** cheating c***". I stopped play and called the referee over told him what happened, I was completely gobsmacked when he told me yes he had heard it, what did he do, nothing!

What that match official has effectively done now is allowed the player to think it's ok to direct foul and abusive language at another match official next week against the laws of the game.

I have had to officiate two matches this seasons, no cards, no dissents from any players who were a credit to their clubs, I cut that crap out from the start. Not saying I've made mistakes in the past.

So the CCFA, Leagues, Clubs and Players have their part to play. But so do referees, to grow a pair of balls and stamp it out as it's getting out of hand and as a result we will continue to lose more quality officials each season.

[pointers]

I agree about the FA needing to looking at the grassroots and a few other points. Regarding the senior cup weekends, why couldn't the Trelawny fixtures be played on a Sunday afternoon those weekends? Many referees would then be able to fulfil senior requirements on the sat if needed, then a full and normal fixture list on a sun? People would know in advance so could rotate their 'family' day to a sat instead of a sun which is what many will shortly say...

Back to my point about raising match fees, realistically if officials at this level did NOT get a penny do you think we would have as many as we currently do? A substantial amount would already be long gone after the abuse they receive, you are not going to get rid of this overnight nor over a season or two! But the point I was trying to make was if the match fees were worthwhile they'd find it very hard to not be available!

I think a stop on new teams needs to happen, no more at the end of this season even if Cornwall ends up losing 20 teams you just adjust the leagues accordingly until you start to hear the odd ref saying he can't get a game..too many refs! Like I said before you don't have 3 or 4 phones if you can only use 1, why on earth would a company like ccfa have so many teams with so many refs......??!!

[cornishteddyboy]

One solution regarding the Senior Cup is to play it over two Saturdays or over a weekend, Half the games Saturday and half Sunday.

Also in the Junior leagues why don't the leagues ask some of the clubs with floodlights to play more midweek home games and travel to away matches on the Saturdays.

[midlandlilywhite]

Richard and the "olderiget...", your points are both spot on. Referees don't do the job for money but to be involved in a game they love. Cut out the abuse then the shortage will cease to exist.

[pointers]

Gents, i am on your side and fully agree that the abuse needs to be stamped out, but that is not going to happen.....the question is how can the clubs stop more referees hanging up the whistle aside from this? because it will take many seasons to even begin to see a difference with the abuse, clubs and cornwall need a quicker solution!!!

[stevieb]

This is my thoughts on this post , football has changed less people running clubs ,refs ect take a look around , most are now getting on in years , players leave the game and very rarely get involved at any level , sport has changed go to any surf beach and see how many surfers/ bodyboarders are around , they only need to have the right equipment and off they go , games consoles , the internet have changed how people use the leisure time , will try to not get political , but lots have to work weekend now ,zero hours contracts as and when needed and the way lots of employers act now it's either you take what is offered or they will find someone else , partners also working so child minding is shared, , and abuse to officials this must be one of the main reasons why give up an afternoon for a minority to question every decision they make with a foul mouth rant , this is down to clubs ,managers and players to stop the respect campaign has not worked , even on the corn foot forum nearly every week we have posts about officials how rubbish they are , is this for the good off the game? Or a rant that things haven't gone their way on match day and easier to blame the ref than their own teams performance , there are good refs and not so good , but on the other hand there are some good players and some not so good but does anyone abuse the not so good? Would their team/ manager but up with it I think not , I can swear like everyone else , but it is getting out of hand from players managers and supporters , the banter has gone instead abuse seems to be accepted by everyone could it kill the so called beautiful game?

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

Stop the rot from the top. Aston Villa vs Tottenham, some of the abuse and circling the referee was a disgrace, for what was no more than handbags from players and managers. My comment in the club was " I'd send the bloody lot off " and I would.

Then, and only then will these spoilt mis-behaving children and the FA get the bloody message.

Its all getting very boring from these millionaires, money doesn't give you manners or a brain.

[Bruegel the Elder]

There again the FA/Leagues could introduce a Respect/Basic footballing course that all players must have a certificate of attendance for before they can register as a player in any team under the auspices of the CCFA or respective leagues. A course for maybe a tenner would weed out the disinterested and maybe instill some discipline into players. It might also have the added advantage of reducing the pool of players/teams to those who actually care about the game and its future in the County. It works for coaches, officials and other club officials, and the withdrawal of a players certificate would freeze the rogue players out. Could be a good idea, so extremely unlikely to happen!

[Martin Eddy]

Good idea but trying to get a tenner out of a player!! have you tried collecting subs on a Saturday

[fenman]

Devon and Cornwall aren't the only counties with this problem , here in Norfolk we have similar problems . Most of the leagues at the lower level ,( primary ), have a number of games played without refs . For many years leagues have had a rule that should there be no official referee for a game is is the responsibility of the home club to provide one who is mutually agreed on by both sides . Now to many of you this appears to be ludicrous but it works , we very rarely have complaints . Don't get the impression that there are scores of games in this backwater of civilisation being played without referees , it's probably only about 3 or 4 per week per league . Obviously the higher level games get referees allocated , but these last 2 or 3 years have seen a severe reduction in referees . I have noticed that in common with a shortage , almost an absence , of young players that there is an absence of young referees in the game . There are I believe 3 reasons for this . 1 a growing lack of interest in the game , as a young man said when I asked him if he played football " why is it compulsory to play or like football , civilisation has been here for a thousand years and football has only been here 10% of that time it's an evolutionary thing and people are moving on " now you can guess he wasn't a Norfolk boy with that sort of philosophical thinking !!1 2 . work patterns have changed , walk into any large store on Saturdays or Sundays and count how many sport age group men there are working . 3 . travelling time and abuse also must have an effect particularly abuse . The radical ideas of the 60's have left us with an almost total lack of respect for each other and as a result there's no discipline . People grow up in an environment of no discipline and lack of rules and when they are caught breaking the rules or law retaliate by being abusive . For a lone young referee on a football pitch this can be a daunting prospect and must put many off .

One other thing I've noticed over the years is that when most players retire from the game they walk ( or limp ) away never to be seen again near a football pitch .It's a pity because even if a small percentage became referees that would help the situation enormously .

We also have additional problems in Norfolk in that the county FA seem to have given up on 11 a side adult football and concentrated on 5 a side midweek leagues on artificial surfaces . Aside from being a money spinner for the FA this has worsened the referee situation . If you think about it it's logical , a referee works 5 days a week , on Saturday or Sunday he referees , as a result his day is messed up as far as his family goes . If he referees a midweek game , or 2 or 3 , 5 a side game ,his day is messed up by work so he gives up the evening , he gets an extra income so the weekend game isn't so important and means he has the whole weekend free for the family . Another problem we seem to have is that many referees have disagreed with the young county FA's policies regarding referees and packed up .

As you can gather it's a wet day here on the Norfolk Broads and a decrepid old man has nothing to do but babble on about football to people who he doesn't know 400 miles away .

[stevieb]

Devon and Cornwall aren't the only counties with this problem , here in Norfolk we have similar problems . Most of the leagues at the lower level ,( primary ), have a number of games played without refs . For many years leagues have had a rule that should there be no official referee for a game is is the responsibility of the home club to provide one who is mutually agreed on by both sides . Now to many of you this appears to be ludicrous but it works , we very rarely have complaints . Don't get the impression that there are scores of games in this backwater of civilisation being played without referees , it's probably only about 3 or 4 per week per league . Obviously the higher level games get referees allocated , but these last 2 or 3 years have seen a severe reduction in referees . I have noticed that in common with a shortage , almost an absence , of young players that there is an absence of young referees in the game . There are I believe 3 reasons for this . 1 a growing lack of interest in the game , as a young man said when I asked him if he played football " why is it compulsory to play or like football , civilisation has been here for a thousand years and football has only been here 10% of that time it's an evolutionary thing and people are moving on " now you can guess he wasn't a Norfolk boy with that sort of philosophical thinking !!1 2 . work patterns have changed , walk into any large store on Saturdays or Sundays and count how many sport age group men there are working . 3 . travelling time and abuse also must have an effect particularly abuse . The radical ideas of the 60's have left us with an almost total lack of respect for each other and as a result there's no discipline . People grow up in an environment of no discipline and lack of rules and when they are caught breaking the rules or law retaliate by being abusive . For a lone young referee on a football pitch this can be a daunting prospect and must put many off .

One other thing I've noticed over the years is that when most players retire from the game they walk ( or limp ) away never to be seen again near a football pitch .It's a pity because even if a small percentage became referees that would help the situation enormously .

We also have additional problems in Norfolk in that the county FA seem to have given up on 11 a side adult football and concentrated on 5 a side midweek leagues on artificial surfaces . Aside from being a money spinner for the FA this has worsened the referee situation . If you think about it it's logical , a referee works 5 days a week , on Saturday or Sunday he referees , as a result his day is messed up as far as his family goes . If he referees a midweek game , or 2 or 3 , 5 a side game ,his day is messed up by work so he gives up the evening , he gets an extra income so the weekend game isn't so important and means he has the whole weekend free for the family . Another problem we seem to have is that many referees have disagreed with the young county FA's policies regarding referees and packed up .

As you can gather it's a wet day here on the Norfolk Broads and a decrepid old man has nothing to do but babble on about football to people who he doesn't know 400 miles away .

. Very good post Fenman just shows it is a country wide problem with refs but the same points as down here in cornwall , thanks for a different perspective on the problems in another area keep posting

[Tempo]

With the alleged assault last season, and the recent abandonment of a game in Trelawney League due to, well whatever happened that day - the facts still don't seem to truly be out in the open... Is it really surprising that we do not have enough referees coming into the game?

[Dave Deacon]

Not sure how many have seen this clip - but thanks to the player who sent me the link thinking it would be a good example of just how hard a refs job is!

[Bruegel the Elder]

Well, obviously Dave they're a bit more refined up in Middlesex than down here! But I do like the idea of Ref-cam, could they be made compulsory? I was going to say it would keep the players on their toes, but maybe not!

[stevieb]

Well, obviously Dave they're a bit more refined up in Middlesex than down here! But I do like the idea of Ref-cam, could they be made compulsory? I was going to say it would keep the players on their toes, but maybe not!

what about take up rugbys idea of putting a mic on perhaps then the fa would stamp out abuse of officials start at the top and work down

[St Darren]

The major difference between football and rugby is that I imagine decisions are a lot clearer in rugby and there is less interpretation. In football, nearly every free kick will be contested because someone believes it wasn't

The respect thing will take a while to set in and until more punishment is handed out at the top then nothing is going to happen

[Goldeneye]

The major difference between football and rugby is that I imagine decisions are a lot clearer in rugby

Wrong! The major difference is the attitude of the players and managers. In football the attidude of players and managers is childish and pathetic. Anyway it's too late now to change anything in local football, the damage has been done. Spectators and volunteers don't like what's happened and have voted with their feet!

[Dave Deacon]

Anyway it's too late now to change anything in local football, the damage has been done.

What a sad thought! Where has the major damage been done?

[cornishteddyboy]

You know the old saying

Football is a gentlemen's game played by ruffians and rugby is a ruffians game played by gentlemen.

[Goldeneye]

What a sad thought! Where has the major damage been done?

Damage has been done because football has not moved with the times. Nowadays families do a lot more together, (particularly before their children become rebellious teenagers!). You can go to a lot of events and see whole families attending. You very rarely see that at football. Gone are the days wher the husband would say to his wife / partner, 'you can do the shopping - I'm off to watch the football'. Football is not family friendly due to the constant swearing and bad behaviour of players / managers, aswell as the lack of facilities.Some will say they haven't got money to improve stands, shelter, toilets etc, but they can find enough money to pay players up to 15 / 20 times as much as they can win in prize money. Clubs, managers, players have to make foootball enjoyable to go to. Unless they do the number of football teams in Cornwall and those watching will continue to decline. My message to club officials, managers and players is 'WAKE UP!'

[The Professor]

What a sad thought! Where has the major damage been done?

Damage has been done because football has not moved with the times. Nowadays families do a lot more together, (particularly before their children become rebellious teenagers!). You can go to a lot of events and see whole families attending. You very rarely see that at football. Gone are the days wher the husband would say to his wife / partner, 'you can do the shopping - I'm off to watch the football'. Football is not family friendly due to the constant swearing and bad behaviour of players / managers, aswell as the lack of facilities.Some will say they haven't got money to improve stands, shelter, toilets etc, but they can find enough money to pay players up to 15 / 20 times as much as they can win in prize money. Clubs, managers, players have to make foootball enjoyable to go to. Unless they do the number of football teams in Cornwall and those watching will continue to decline. My message to club officials, managers and players is 'WAKE UP!'

I don't think I've ever agreed with a post on here so much - nail firmly on the head!

I've got an 8-year old and a 3-year old. The 8-year old is beginning to really get into football. There's no way that I'd take him to a SWPL game - on the advice of some friends who still play in the league! The family-friendly atmosphere viewpoint is an interesting one too. Many of the grounds I played at in the 90's are in the same (or worse) state than they were back then. Sustainable expenditure (youth teams, qualified coaches and upgraded facilities) has most certainly lost out to short-term gains (players en vogue, managers with extra cash, and brown envelopes).

[St Darren]

Agree 100% with that last statement goldeneye

[Guest]

Sorry but I am afraid it is down to the match officials to actually do their job. If they are prepared to not do what they are supposed to do when clear action must be taken against an offender whether it be violent conduct or verbal abuse then it will only get worse. Match officials must be backed up by their respective associations. To often match officials ignore the abuse and then blame everyone else. Do your jobs right and this will eventually be sorted, until then it is up to clubs to reign in their players and especially the dug out. It needs everyone to come on board.

[Referee]

Match officials must be backed up by their respective associations.

True.