Big Breakfast Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 This week Trelawny League teams have been given the chance to vote for or against I/D cards. I know its an old subject but I was wondering where people now stand on the issue when it may actually be happening. For me and my club i'm for it, we have nothing to hide and quite frankly I'm sick of the cheating that we all know happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishman64 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 yes agood but wot is the cost going 2 be and who would check them be 4 each game plus team sheets filled in as well 2 check names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Darren Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 what happens if you forget to bring the card? are you not permitted to play? I think its a good idea, but theres a few more things to sort out in Junior/Lower league football before this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Breakfast Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 All things that the league will need to decide. I would keep it simple if you dont have ur I/D with you at the game you cant play. As has been discussed on here many times it works all over the Country, Europe and Junior (Youth/Kids) football so why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDen Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I referee youth football on Sunday mornings and the under 9's have a sheet with all names under current picture. Both managers give me the sheet call out players name-Bobs your uncle! It would take two mins for the refs to come in changing rooms before the game to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishman64 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 i think big breakfast ur wright no id no play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 DirtyDen, it sounds like assembly at school, I for one will never go into changing rooms and take a roll call, as a referee it`s not one of my responsabilities to check names, I am not a club secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plainlazy Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I for one would welcome this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green & white Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 good idea but lots of fuss & full of problems i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDen Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 B Manning, I had my name called out at registration at school not assembly??? However it takes no time at all and is quite helpfull overall. You clearly do not feel this is for you and your doing plenty already for your match fee? I'm just trying to help find a solution for this OBVIOUS problem. But thanks for your Positive response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dave's Dad Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 what a great way for a ref to get across his personality to players than to meet before the game (same for players)could even save some friction later on the pitch. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 DirtyDen, You are talking about adult football surely adults need and should take their own respnsability, also it is a league issue not the referee`s, so if the league wish to implement it so be it, but nothing to do with the referee, also in the small village school I went to (about 15 pupils ) we refered to it as assembly, To Big Daves Dad, I will never recommend a referee going into the changing rooms before a match a bad idea i`m afraid, they do not want to listen anyhow. As an official who reached level 3 and an assessor I think I can speak from my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Rabone Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 It would be interesting to see if this is introduced and how it works. There appears to be an accepted principle amongst players - any referee that comes into changing rooms to lecture teams invariably turns out to be... not very good! (Based upon previous experience) If this is the over-riding thought then Mr Manning is right, you probably won't be listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dave's Dad Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 it doesn't have to fall to the ref, a member of the opposition could check cards and only ask the ref if something doesn't add up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 DirtyDen, You are talking about adult football surely adults need and should take their own respnsability, also it is a league issue not the referee`s, so if the league wish to implement it so be it, but nothing to do with the referee, also in the small village school I went to (about 15 pupils ) we refered to it as assembly, To Big Daves Dad, I will never recommend a referee going into the changing rooms before a match a bad idea i`m afraid, they do not want to listen anyhow. As an official who reached level 3 and an assessor I think I can speak from my experience. Mr Manning, would it really be that challenging to walk into each changing room and check that every player is carrying there ID card? I feel attutudes like yours is why good ideas such as this will never take off! and perhaps why a lot of people have low opinions of referee's! And what really narks me is you say you are not the club secretary, well why not add this onto the never ending to do list of an over run and stressed out secretary who would now have to turn up to every home game, whlst doing the job they love to do, unpaid!!! I think this has got to be the way forward however Im afraid the only realistic option is going to be referee's having to have another line added to there job description and shouldering a tiny bit more responsibilty by checking these cards! This is Steve Carpenter's baby and I know he has been looking into these cards for a couple of years now and knowing Steve he'd have done his homework, he wouldn't lead the Trelawny League into anthing he didn't think would work and I think were all going to have to trust him on the issue and as clubs I dont feel we have any other options then to head down this pathway!!!!!!!! Having been done out of a cup final against a team who we knew had first team players in but couldn't prove our club would whole heartedly back these cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 It would be interesting to see if this is introduced and how it works. There appears to be an accepted principle amongst players - any referee that comes into changing rooms to lecture teams invariably turns out to be... not very good! (Based upon previous experience) If this is the over-riding thought then Mr Manning is right, you probably won't be listening. the issue isn't about ref's going into changing rooms to lecture players its about checking cards and once it became standard practice knowbody would ever question it or think it odd!!! Nowhere in any of this precedure would a refereee ever have to walk into a changing a room and lay the law down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Once again, it`s not the referee`s responsability, it is not our obligation to check league registrations, they are league requirements and as such are the domain of the clubs and their sceretaries and again it`s not a good idea for the referee to go into the club changing rooms before a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Once again, it`s not the referee`s resposability, it is not our obligation to check league registrations, they are league requirements and as such are the domain of the clubs and their sceretaries and again it`s not a good idea for the referee to go into the club changing rooms before a match. they're not asking you to check player registrations they'd be asking you to check that the 11 players starting and substtutes are who they say they are, thus being proved by the photograph on the card I think you are going to have to accept that the reponsibilties will fall on your shoulders being the only neutral party at a game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Once again, it`s not the referee`s resposability, it is not our obligation to check league registrations, they are league requirements and as such are the domain of the clubs and their sceretaries and again it`s not a good idea for the referee to go into the club changing rooms before a match. you wouldn't necessarily have to even go into a changing room, you could perhaps check them when they come out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired for now Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 What if opposing players or ref knew you but you forgot your card?? play or not play? Someone whos played for the same club for years could get punished. What if you lose your card?? Anyone know what the back up plan would be or would you have to miss a months football while a new one was sent out. Its not the worst idea in the world but some players have problems remembering to bring there boots or shinpads let alone id cards, you would only have to be in a rush leaving home and forget to pick up your wallet and get there and not be allowed to play or leave them with club secretary and hes left one behind or lost the lot in a panic because he or she is trying to get the pitch sorted or get hold of the ref or one of there many other responsibilities. As for the ref coming in the changing room, ive seen this done by one or 2 and i hate it. Thats the players domain, as for them checking id's, im guessing some would be up for it and some not. Could say its about changing with the times but theres far too much to do now just to play in one football match. Im sure there are some players who play for a team that shouldnt but is it really that bad in this level of footy now? Im not saying either way as i dont know but i would hope most clubs are honest and if so are id cards neccasary. Mind you with all the fine money the ccfa get maybe they could put a few quid to good use and send the cards out and trial it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peters Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Ok after reading "Retired for now" i agree ID Cards would be stupid, To be honest why we even talking about ID Cards? Haha I say write on paper who's playing and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired for now Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Ok after reading "Retired for now" i agree ID Cards would be stupid, To be honest why we even talking about ID Cards? Haha I say write on paper who's playing and done. Am only debating the subject but for me id cards although may work seems like just more paperwork etc where given the standard we play at seems like too much papaerwork already. sunday league you can ask for up to 3 signatures from individual players on team sheets. If you think a fake name has been put down ask for a signature. not 100% if this still happens but is easy and cheap to do. All our signatures are on file from signing on and no more paperwork needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smashing pumpkin Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 sounds like mr manning is to lazy to check the id cards , i think its a good idea , i know of someone 6 years ago who got banned for 4months from football but went and played in another divsion on the other side of the county under a differant name. so that ban turned out to never being served . if we had id cards back then it would never of happend!!!!!!!!!!111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Peters Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I agree, All Ill do is play and do what I have to haha Anyone know Newlyn Dolphins Score Division 6? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired for now Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 sounds like mr manning is to lazy to check the id cards , i think its a good idea , i know of someone 6 years ago who got banned for 4months from football but went and played in another divsion on the other side of the county under a differant name. so that ban turned out to never being served . if we had id cards back then it would never of happend!!!!!!!!!!111 If the id card was covered in all leagues and not just Trelawny leagues. wouldnt work in that case unless it was adopted everywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 smashing pumkin, you are missing the point, player registration within the leagues is not the referee`s responsabilty. I`m not too lazy, I just do not want to get involved with something that is nothing to do with us, simple!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smashing pumpkin Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 sounds like mr manning is to lazy to check the id cards , i think its a good idea , i know of someone 6 years ago who got banned for 4months from football but went and played in another divsion on the other side of the county under a differant name. so that ban turned out to never being served . if we had id cards back then it would never of happend!!!!!!!!!!111 If the id card was covered in all leagues and not just Trelawny leagues. wouldnt work in that case unless it was adopted everywhere i think it would be a good idea , as for people saying people may forget the cards, why not everyone leave them with thier managers. also mr manning i was only joking saying lazy , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le boss Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Keep all the i/d cards with the managers and it will soon filter thru to those cheating that they are not going to get away with it and it will soon stop - very long overdue and referees would only need to act as verifiers if their was a discrepancy - surely they need to earn their money???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve wints Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I think this is a good idea. When i lived in switzerland every player had an ID card. Before the game started the ref would come into the changing rooms and check every players ID. In all 5 mins work. We british dont like change do we!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Darren Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 all referee's that have gone into a changing room before the game, have gone on to have shocking games! fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Rabone Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 all referee's that have gone into a changing room before the game, have gone on to have shocking games! fact! Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smashing pumpkin Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 harsh but fair just brought up something on another thread about the ben andros saga . if players had ID cards thing like that wouldnt happen . for the people who dont agree to it just think if that ever happen again they would probly change there tune. RIP ben andros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falfootie Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Le boss is spot on - would, hopefully, do away with a lot of the cheating. How many out there have played in teams where 'ringers' have been drafted in and played under false identities? Most of us! ID cards are used at junior level and involve the coaches/managers in checking the veracity of the opponents players. It doesn't much affect football at senior level because players are generally more well known but would hopefully deal with some of the shenanigans at the lower level. The ideal scenario is that all ID cards would be retained by the club (secretary/coach/manager etc) so the more braindead idiots (who can't be trusted to turn up with their cards) wouldn't have to worry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 le-boss, by your remark is it your opinion we do not earn our match fee, you cannot include the 36p per mile travelling expenses as a realistc figure on that would be nearer 70p per mile, now on a saturday I leave home at the latest 13:00 hrs I am on average home by 18;00 hrs thats 5 hrs, now £18 divided by 5 = £3.60 per hour, now that does not include registration fee`s replacement kit or the time spent on reports after the game, So all in all i think we earn that match fee, especially with all the grief and hassle we are given. Aslo as an after thought we get paid alot less that some players do even to the grass root level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Darren Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 however Paul, the majority of referee's are getting paid for something that they enjoy doing, so it can't be that bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le boss Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 le-boss, by your remark is it your opinion we do not earn our match fee, you cannot include the 36p per mile travelling expenses as a realistc figure on that would be nearer 70p per mile, now on a saturday I leave home at the latest 13:00 hrs I am on average home by 18;00 hrs thats 5 hrs, now £18 divided by 5 = £3.60 per hour, now that does not include registration fee`s replacement kit or the time spent on reports after the game, So all in all i think we earn that match fee, especially with all the grief and hassle we are given. Aslo as an after thought we get paid alot less that some players do even to the grass root level. you have a choice.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Breakfast Posted January 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Cards would be checked before the game with both sides representatives (Managers, Sec's, Trainer, Captain) producing their selected sides cards for viewing. I would suggest that who ever is in charge ensures the cards are at the game for viewing. Should there be a problem they have about hour and a half (90mins)to get it resolved, ie if they forget them. If they can't produce them for viewing its upto the league to decide on the relevent punishment. Should it be the case that one player doesn't have his card then he doesn't play, unless its a new signing. When the same rules apply as now, you sign the sheet for his registration. Within no time at all having your cards at a game will be as important if not more important than remembering your clubs kit. In my too many years involved in this game I can honestly say I have never turned up to find we have no kit to play in. No balls, no water bottles, no paperwork many times and I'm sure I/D would be top of my list of things to remember. Lets be honest here we all know cheating goes on. We all know its a problem and now we have an opportunity to do something about it. Its simple, it works and its tried and tested all over the place. For me it can't come soon enough. Theres nothing worse than having your season or cup ruined by a couple of ringers who shouldnt be on the pitch. I cant for the life of me see why anyone wouldnt want to support it and try and stop people cheating you out of your deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Eddy Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 when i was involved in youth football a few years ago it was the responsibility of the club to check cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 That goes for yourself also le_boss, remembering it was you who brought up the fee`s paid to referee`s not me.and Darren I completely agree with you and for le_boss to single out referee`s when I have seen players receive monies etc even at grass root level then that comment about us earning our fee was a little bit onesided and I felt I had to defend the officials who do not do it for the money, if it was for the money you would not last long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Justice Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 harsh but fair just brought up something on another thread about the ben andros saga . if players had ID cards thing like that wouldnt happen . for the people who dont agree to it just think if that ever happen again they would probly change there tune. RIP ben andros Ben Andros could get his own ID card when he comes back from working in Southampton Docks ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 le-boss, by your remark is it your opinion we do not earn our match fee, you cannot include the 36p per mile travelling expenses as a realistc figure on that would be nearer 70p per mile, now on a saturday I leave home at the latest 13:00 hrs I am on average home by 18;00 hrs thats 5 hrs, now £18 divided by 5 = £3.60 per hour, now that does not include registration fee`s replacement kit or the time spent on reports after the game, So all in all i think we earn that match fee, especially with all the grief and hassle we are given. Aslo as an after thought we get paid alot less that some players do even to the grass root level. Mr Manning you are never going to win the argument over referee's expenses! If you think you should be receiving 70p a mile you must be driving a 5ltr gas guzzler!As with any job (because lets not forget it is a job, it should be declared as 2nd earnings and tax should be paid on it) you do not get paid for travelling to and from your place of work, now we as clubs pay referee's there 'wages' so there for we should have a say in your job description and should we as clubs vote to go forward with ID cards and the emphasis be placed on referee's, surely to referee any games in our league you would have to comply or choose not to referee any games in the league and limit yourself to just doing other leagues. I feel you are missing the point Mr Manning, at no time would you ever have to do anything with player registrations you just have to check that people are who they say they are! I think it would have benifits for a referee as well, it would stop any cases of mixed up identity as well as players playing under someone elses name. If you have been the victim of 'ringers' you will completely understand the need to birng in these ID cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le boss Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 If I/D cards were in use then only the very foolish foolish would risk cheating. Not asking for referees to have to check all administration before a game but merely act as witness/arbitration should an issue arise. Not too much to ask is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest smashing pumpkin Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 70p per mile ? so if you put ten pounds petrol in you get 14miles roughly. what the hell are you driving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 smashing pumpkin, the 70p per mile includes tax insurance maintenance depreciation etc which is all included ina pence per mile figure provided by the AA, in fact that figure is probably below actual expenditure, I hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Rundle Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 smashing pumpkin, the 70p per mile includes tax insurance maintenance depreciation etc which is all included ina pence per mile figure provided by the AA, in fact that figure is probably below actual expenditure, I hope that helps. You either have to have a car worth over £32K or drive less than 5000 miles per year for that to be even close to true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadcert Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Only clubs that have NEVER played ringers or players under false names should be allowed to vote. That way it will be a decision made by the league!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Richard lets just put it this way, I know that 5 years ago if you worked in the justice system shall we say, the pence per mile renumeration was 50p per mile. fact !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystal hood Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Richard lets just put it this way, I know that 5 years ago if you worked in the justice system shall we say, the pence per mile renumeration was 50p per mile. fact !. we had a referee from Falmouth a few weeks ago who charged us £25 fuel costs, £53 all in all, why is it when I put it into an RAC route finder they say it will cost £12.72 approx in fuel? Thats quite a difference I'm sure you'd agree! based on your reckoning of 70p a mile we would have paid £49 travelling expenses totalling £77 all in all, thats £65 profit on what the RAC claim it should cost you in fuel meaning that for 1 and a half hours work you would recieve £43+ an hour. where might I add are clubs suppose to find this kind of money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le boss Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Richard lets just put it this way, I know that 5 years ago if you worked in the justice system shall we say, the pence per mile renumeration was 50p per mile. fact !. we had a referee from Falmouth a few weeks ago who charged us £25 fuel costs, £53 all in all, why is it when I put it into an RAC route finder they say it will cost £12.72 approx in fuel? Thats quite a difference I'm sure you'd agree! based on your reckoning of 70p a mile we would have paid £49 travelling expenses totalling £77 all in all, thats £65 profit on what the RAC claim it should cost you in fuel meaning that for 1 and a half hours work you would recieve £43+ an hour. where might I add are clubs suppose to find this kind of money? But they do it for the love of it..............................!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Manning Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Lets keep this in perspective, the figure of pence per mile is not just fuel it`s all the other running costs, ie, car tax, insurance, mot, maintenance, breakdown cover plus depreciation of the car, so that figure we receive of 36p per mile is not just the fuel, I also can assure you that to run my car costs me far more than 36p per mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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