Massey's Mutterings - August 11th 2010

[Dave Deacon]

It's Wednesday and so make sure you refresh your Massey's Mutterings page!

This week Steve leads with the suggestion that the apathy within Cornish football is stopping the good ideas being carried out - is he right?

[oldasitgets]

"The Cornish FA for many reasons is in there, they have still to really embrace the respect campaign, Great concept from the FA, but why are they one of the last FAs in the Country to do so?"

Great concept - but, unfortunately content free. Even the F.A. admit that there's little in "Respect" for adult men's football outside the Premiership. It's had an impact on youth football and the top of the professional game, but nothing there for the bulk of football. The Cornish F.A. have tried to promote it. Ian Annear's been appointed as the County Respect Czar, but he has nothing to push it along with. There are no sanctions, no rewards - nothing that would convince any club to change the way their players deal with refs - other than continually suggesting that it's a "good thing". Why should a Jolly's combo, or any other league, side change anything because of "Respect"?

If the refs were seriously assessing clubs and then clubs with consistently poor assessments lost points, the behaviour wold change overnight and we may have a game we can be proud of. Unfortunately, the F.A. only allows points to be deducted for clubs in financial difficulties - much more serious than ripping apart the grass-roots of our game.

Disagree that the Cornish F.A. haven't embraced the Respect campaign. But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[Tommy Matthews]

I also disagree that Cornwall FA hasn't embraced the Respect Campaign.

The football festival that had to be postponed at Newquay Tretherras School in May is scheduled to go ahead at Newquay Sports Centre in September and the details can be found on the CCFA website. It's being backed by the FA and they are hoping to make it the first festival to include all the Respect paraphernalia that the FA has to offer. They are also hopeful that Dermot Collins who heads up the Respect Campaign for the FA may be in attendance.

Phil Cardew has had it earmarked for months and is doing all he can to make it a great success.

I would agree though that if the Respect Campaign is to be a success it can't be soley from the bottom up, we must also see some respect from the top down...I fear that is some considerable time away!

[oldasitgets]

The football festival that had to be postponed at Newquay Tretherras School in May is scheduled to go ahead at Newquay Sports Centre in September and the details can be found on the CCFA website. It's being backed by the FA and they are hoping to make it the first festival to include all the Respect paraphernalia that the FA has to offer.

Tommy I think that, following last week's CCFA Respect meeting, it was decided not to include the Respect stuff in that event.

[MOUNTAINEER]

Steve, Now is not the time for another team in Truro, if it became necessary I don't think the idea is dead, back in 1949 I and two mates started a team, others joined in, the only requirement was a clothing coupon from each member for the shirts, we had raised the cash collecting jam jars from people, taking them back to the shops for a penny refund each jar, trolley load after trolley load, later that team became Truro Hendra. Now that would be great a football stadium in the City along St Georges Road at the bottom of Hendra Hill or is it smaller than my memory believes it to be.

Isn't it a pity that there is no welcoming committee to greet the ex players, helpers, supporters etc with so much knowledge & help to give, most have been elbowed out of Truro City FC because of the insular controlling of the club. I suppose that happens when your football club becomes a limited private company.

[Tommy Matthews]

Hi Bill

That's a shame, it's about time that we all understood what it's all about.

I was talking to 4 referees the other night who think it's made absolutely no difference whatsoever to them!

Maybe we don't have the same problems that they have in other areas. I see on the TV last night during the England game that on the advertising boards they were claiming that attacks on referees were down. We don't get that down here for the most part and long may that continue.

It's a shame that the FA were embarrassed by your ideas!

[B Manning]

Hi Tommy, well you can add another referee to that 4 you mention as it`s made no difference at all in my experience if anything things are worse.

[Spider]

Do referees get lessons/coaching in respecting players?

I really do think it will only work if it goes both ways. Referees who can't explain a decision or just continually shout 'walk away walk away' and can't communicate etc will never earn respect....FACT.

Referees get decisions wrong and that's fair enough, who doesn't make a mistake in a game!! But with 22 players on the pitch many of those players COULD be in better positions to see an incident and will therefor question a decision. I have questioned many a decision BUT if a referee says to me 'sorry but from where I was I saw this happen or that happen' there is nothing I can come back with!! And I will respect his decision and the fact he knows what he has given it for. But how can you accept a decision when half the time the referee can't tell you what he has given it for? I realise that a referee shouldn't have to explain a decsion but if he doesn't then a lot of people will assume, rightly or wrongly, that he is just guessing and that infuriates players.

I am all for the respect campaign and like a laugh and a joke with the officials and I have a lot of time for many of them. And to be fair in recent years a few characters have come into the game and it makes the whole experience of playing football better with officials who have a sense of humour and common sence!!

Gentlemen......Enjoy!!!

[B Manning]

Spider, you are a classic example of someone who has not even read the FA respect program, so please do.

[oldasitgets]

Spider,

Think it through. The referee has no choice but to give what he sees from where he's standing.

Why on earth should he need to explain that? isn't it obvious? Maybe he has to "guess" if he doesn't see clearly. So what?

Every decision has to be made that way. Next time you are going to question a decision, say to yourself (silently) "He gave what he thought he saw from where he was." Save a lot of bother.

No, a referee hasn't got to earn respect. He's the match "official". Respect goes with the job, or all is lost.

[Spider]

I completely UNDERSTAND what you are both saying, I really do. But I'm just telling you how it works!! Football is a passionate game and if people don't agree with decisions you immediately, instinctively, appeal agaisnt it!! Did you sit in your armchair silently when Frank Lampards 'GOAL' was ruled out and just (silently) say to yourself, oh he gave what he saw? Did you hell!!

[oldasitgets]

I completely UNDERSTAND what you are both saying, I really do. But I'm just telling you how it works!! Football is a passionate game and if people don't agree with decisions you immediately, instinctively, appeal agaisnt it!! Did you sit in your armchair silently when Frank Lampards 'GOAL' was ruled out and just (silently) say to yourself, oh he gave what he saw? Did you hell!!

No you don't understand. None of it.

And that's why football has much that we should not be proud of.

Why not, "instinctively" accept whatever a ref gives? (The answer is that, sadly, it's become normal to question decisions. There's no "instinct" involved.)

[Spider]

oldasitgets, believe me I do understand. But it's not just football that has much that we should not be proud of. It is called life. No one will ever accept something they think is wrong. I just think that there could be other ways around it and maybe different techniques that could be used.

[oldasitgets]

Spider,

No, you don't understand. Even slightly.

[Spider]

Might have to agree to disagree then oldasitgets!! Unless you can help me to understand because I am willing to learn?!!

[gillo10]

Id give up Spider, Ive had very similar attempts to explain why some players lose their tempers with the way they are talked too. It seems that these two gentlemen cannot accept that some refs talk to players like they are a higher being and all refs must NEVER be questioned.

Gents, we ALL know that in a perfect world we would all accept every decision the ref makes. However, this is not the case. I have never played a game where the ref has not been questioned regarding a decision. Yes, I know refs do not need to explain their decision to us mere players but it truly does calm a situation if the ref just replies why he gave a decision, it takes a few seconds and can be done on the move so really where is the issue? Ask ANY person involved in the playing side of the game if this is the case and I would be confident at least 99% would agree.

ie a few years ago I challenged in the air with an opponent, as we landed he had a swipe at my legs. Obviously I ask the ref how he has not given anything for this blatant kick. He replied "sorry fella, the ball had gone, my eyes went with it. If Id seen it, I would have given it" I say fair play, cheers ref and on we went. (Paul from St Just area, top ref) The following week, an opponent appealled against a decision by holding his arms out palms up. The ref, very sarcastically asks him "what? Is it about to rain? Stupid boy! Get on with it or go in the book" I say to ref, alright ref no need to speak like that he is only asking you. He isnt a piece of muck for you to speak too. The ref then spent the next minute reminding me of just how important he is to my game of football and threatening to send me off.(Not sure of name, bean pole jobs-worth from Culdrose)

I think what Spider is saying is that the whole "respect" issue should work both ways!

Again, just to be clear, we all know we cannot play without them, we all know their decision is final but unfortunately this isnt a perfect world with fluffy white clouds and decisions will be questioned so why are you so against refs being able to give a little too and a quick explanation?

[B Manning]

gillo10, if you are refering to me could you please show me where i made those comments, if you would care to read my post again I think you will find all i have said was that spider had not read the FA respect campaign literature and I suggested for him to read it. So please do not read into my posts your own slant on things. In fact I have had PM`s with spider and we both know where we are coming from. As for explaining decisions I agree sometimes a quick word on the run will suffice and I do take that action myself but unfortunately a hell of a lot of players do not want your answer all they want is a full scale discussion on the subject and will not listen to your point of view,all they want is to tell you how they see it.

[Lafs]

Extremely interesting debate and a topic I would give anything to see addressed in football from top to bottom. There is for me, a simple way to improve this area in order for it to improve the game immensely and set a better example to all those in their youth who watch their elders on either tv or the park at any level.

Introduce a clear and simple new rule which gives a referee the right to show a yellow card to any player/players who remonstrate beyond the line of control and reason and a red card for persistent offenders. Allow ONLY the captain of each team to confront or question the referee who also must do so without overstepping the line of control and reason and obviously where that line is, is decided at the discretion of the referee. Also the referee in turn communicates with the captains to say he will discuss the decision with them at the next best opportunity. No player can then complain if they are unable to control their actions, the right example is set to the youth and the game is easier on the eye and not being run by players/managers with huge ego's on tv or on the park and ultimately the game earns similar respect to the game of rugby in which you very rarely see a referee chased down or surrounded.

Surely its worth the try.

[Goldeneye]

I agree with every word of that Lafs. I've been saying for some time that only the captain should be allowed to approach the referee.

I also think that some mangers could do more in this area. Do they tell their players before the game to respect the referee and accept his decisions? Do they give their players a rollicking after the game if they don't?

[B Manning]

Lafs, the referee already has the right to caution players for the reasons you state, it`s called dissent, also to send off a player who persistantly offends after a caution. Myself I will always explain a decision after the game provided the player asking keeps sensible about it, the moment he gets silly then the conversation is finished. But these days so many players seem to lose there heads and chase after and surround the referee loudly stating their opinions, I think they see it done at the top levels and think it`s the done thing.

[Lafs]

Quite true, but like you've aknowledged in my previuos post, it still doesnt prevent it happening at either the top or lower level of football. So introduce a new prototype whereas its clear to all parties that there is now a zero tolerance, and as soon as the millions see it take effect on the Rooney's & Drogba's on the big screen or from the terraces, just watch it filter down through as the power of tv carries the message down to the roots of football.

And then the managers at ALL levels will undoubtedly address their own players before, during and after games or else we wont see many games last the full 90 and clubs and players will incur huge fines!!

Its not rocket science!

[B Manning]

Couldn`t agree more Lafs.

[Gary Cornish]

Introduce a clear and simple new rule which gives a referee the right to show a yellow card to any player/players who remonstrate beyond the line of control and reason and a red card for persistent offenders. Allow ONLY the captain of each team to confront or question the referee who also must do so without overstepping the line of control and reason and obviously where that line is, is decided at the discretion of the referee. Also the referee in turn communicates with the captains to say he will discuss the decision with them at the next best opportunity. No player can then complain if they are unable to control their actions, the right example is set to the youth and the game is easier on the eye and not being run by players/managers with huge ego's on tv or on the park and ultimately the game earns similar respect to the game of rugby in which you very rarely see a referee chased down or surrounded.

Surely its worth the try.

Lafs, please forgive if I seem to be having a go at you, I am not by the way, but what you have suggested is already contained within the Respect Programme, although it is not as extreme as your suggestion.

Your post highlights why the Respect Programme appears to be not working - too many managers, players and spectators know nothing about what the Respect Programme is about, or what it entails for them individually, because they haven't taken the time to read the guides. That is presuming their Club has made them aware of them in the first place of course!

If anyone wishes to read them, they can be found on the FA's website.

Thanks

Gary

[Argyle Fan]

Interesting paragraph from one of the respect documents on the FA website:

"Referees should show due respect

when speaking with players, even

in the event of infringements."

[Lafs]

Gary, I havent read them myself, nor have my Club or Club Officials brought the actual specifics of the ruling to my attention. But until one simple rule is implemented and upheld by the FA and Officials like your good self, then the players, managers, coaches and supporters cannot follow suit and so for me the rule of how the latter approaches and communicates with you the officials needs immediate addressing. Then in turn the officials can communicate with us. The precedent has to be set at the top first for the respect to work each way.

And before anyone passes comment who may've seen me react out of term to an official, yes I also include myself!

[Richard Rundle]

I completely UNDERSTAND what you are both saying, I really do. But I'm just telling you how it works!! Football is a passionate game and if people don't agree with decisions you immediately, instinctively, appeal agaisnt it!! Did you sit in your armchair silently when Frank Lampards 'GOAL' was ruled out and just (silently) say to yourself, oh he gave what he saw? Did you hell!!

So why in Rugby, an equally "passionate game", can players accept decisions without arguing or questioning them every time?

[Tommy Matthews]

Maybe we are assuming that the FA want to implement the Respect Campaign and are not merely paying lipservice to it.

The FAPL don't want there to be a massive clampdown on the likes of Messrs. Rooney and co. Therefore, the FA who are funded hugely by the FAPL are unwilling to hammer these players for persistent carping at officials for fear of there funding.

It's therefore easier to implement it from the bottom up because it it doesn't rattle too many cages.

Call me a cynic if you like!

[Spider]

I completely UNDERSTAND what you are both saying, I really do. But I'm just telling you how it works!! Football is a passionate game and if people don't agree with decisions you immediately, instinctively, appeal agaisnt it!! Did you sit in your armchair silently when Frank Lampards 'GOAL' was ruled out and just (silently) say to yourself, oh he gave what he saw? Did you hell!!

So why in Rugby, an equally "passionate game", can players accept decisions without arguing or questioning them every time?

Richard, we all know that Rugby is not a 'proper' game!!!

[oldasitgets]

Maybe we are assuming that the FA want to implement the Respect Campaign and are not merely paying lipservice to it.

The FAPL don't want there to be a massive clampdown on the likes of Messrs. Rooney and co. Therefore, the FA who are funded hugely by the FAPL are unwilling to hammer these players for persistent carping at officials for fear of there funding.

It's therefore easier to implement it from the bottom up because it it doesn't rattle too many cages.

Call me a cynic if you like!

The F.A. had no choice but to do something. The Public Relations element of the player/referee interaction was a disaster. So, they implement a high-profile, expensive campaign that actually does nothing where it matters. "Soft" targets like youth football and, superficially, the top of the professional game, give the F.A. the licence to suggest that they know that there's a problem, but "look what we're doing." All that effort and money into the Respect initiative that, effectively, changes nothing.

The F.A. is crammed with people who will support to the death any improbable and unworkable policy that comes out of Wembley. They have wonderful jobs and rocking the boat is no way to keep those jobs.

There is the line that, if they start youngsters off respecting referees, it will, eventually, filter through to the adult game. That doesn't stand inspection. If the under 16s moved to the under 17s, who moved up en-bloc to become an adult team, then it may have an effect. Reality isn't like that. 1 or 2 players move into an existing adult team where it takes about 10 minutes for them to be infected with the idea that refs are fair game. All the good work in youth football gone for another ball of Wonfas.

[Ken Reed]

Why is it when the forum comments about the `respect` campaign someone inevitably compares football to rugby. Rugby is equally passionate - agreed but the games are totally different. Rugby players accept the decisions of the referee - Mmmmm, maybe but I've seen dissent creeping into this game too, at all levels. One thing you left off Richard, footballers don't rake their studs down opponents, gouge eyes or bite on blood pellets and besides, they only play rugby because they can't kick a ball in a straight line so they have to carry it (LOL). :lol:

[nabbot]

From working in youth football in South Devon i don't see any improvement what so ever due to the respect campaign,

Kids by the age of 14,15 & 16 don't respect referees, opponents or even themselves in many cases, yes there are some

great kids and some bad, The FA seem to bring out headline ideas without a proper plan to see the ideas through, for

me these are promotional AIDS to raise funds through sponsors, the FA could easily issue stats of the last five years

of increasing or decreasing disipline stats, but they wont not enough man power ? Devon FA had four people working down

there eight years ago now there about 12+. Mcdonalds are sponsoring 30,000 coaches which is great, but i would say 85%

only ever do level one badge because that a charter std club requirement, we know many coaches stop after under 16 football

so as many coming in there as many going out. There is no system in place to monitor coaches at level one at training or at

matches, no follow up, no refresher courses. No this is what we are trying to achieve for the greater good, Robbie Byrnes

done my coaching courses turned up in big flashy car and didn't really give a hoot, all seemed like hard work for him no advice

etc. Here we may have the prime example of what really wrong, MONEY. For me its London where the problems are, great ideas with

out any foundations what so ever of how to really implement or really change the current state of our game, look at the debacle

in SA, we come back and have a review of what wrong ?? lets ask the same people who we always ask, ah thats another revalation

from the FA. WE Need AN FA who will actually get of there arses and do something, NOT providing pretty presentations and acting

like pompous idiots walking around with FA jackets on, get into schools and say we are the experts in football teach like this,

live with clubs and coach the coaches right, showing us how to warm up is great, showing us how to take a training session is great

! but its not good enough ! Warn us that you will retract badge if teams not coached in appropriate manner and that if teams don't

play that way ? has this ever happened ? Coaches should be put on watch if a team has say 10 yellows for disent ? over 10 games

then suspended if it doesn't improve. There are easy solutions, but perhaps its as i thought just a "Money making headline".