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jayjay21

Immoral behaviour

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17 hours ago, cfenner said:

9 - Speaking of our new Reserve Team Management, the way that they have been characterised on this forum is wholly unreasonable. Due to the great success of the 'Bar Sol' Parkway Reserve team last season, they had understandable frustrations that their (former) Parkway Under 18s, who had an appetite to step up into the Parkway Firsts, were being 'blocked'. Certainly, Parkway Firsts have made some phenomenal signings recently - a force to be reckoned with this coming season as they push for Western League - which would have made that transition even more challenging. Anyway, whilst Parkway's (former) Under 18s are eligible to remain in the DJM for another season, the lads who are now joining us sought a greater challenge and feel ready for Men's Football and Parkway's loss is our gain. So to be clear, anyone who thinks we took the Under 18s because Glyn moved to to join his brother Lee at Parkway is looking for angst where none exists. We totally respect Glyn's decision (and the fantastic service he has given to us) and admire Parkway's ambition to move on to Western League.  Certainly, we are not in the business of 'playing games' with other clubs. We are only interested in developing Tavistock Football Club.

I'm not convinced this is completely accurate. 

 

The now former Parkway under 18's had every chance to progress through the ranks at Parkway.

9 of the under 18's got a debut in the reserve team through the season and most were asked to play the following week to be told that they were not allowed as someone else from their squad had to get a chance. That is not how football works - if someone comes in and does well they should have been allowed the opportunity to stay in the reserve team and then progress through to the first team. 

3 of the under 18's actually did bypass the reserves and debut for the first team. 1 of which even scoring on his debut. 

Its all water under the bridge now and what has happened has happened. However there was no 'block' from the club. As reserve team manager I often asked for the 18s to come along - I would have happily integrated 4/5 of them fully this season with the view of more to come after another season of under 18s football for the rest.

Let's not forget that the team were the younger age of under 18s and could / should have had another year of youth football challenging to win the league. 

 

The main issue here was the impatience of certain individuals.

That said, I wish Ged, Jeff and all the lads all the best for next season...... except in 2 games ;) 

 

 

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12 hours ago, ECPL said:

Makes great reading BUT and I mean BUT. Tim May was put in an untenable situation by being asked to bring in 8 players along with coaches and then expect him to agree.  Sorry but reading your posting reveals one thing.  You must have known that any manager worth his salt would not accept what in effect was an ultimatum.   The club had obviously made up its mind to accept Plymouth Parkway under 18's yet the clubs own under 18's had a better record.  So bringing in players from Plymouth over local players did not cross your mind that this could cause a problem.   Despite your under 18 manager supposedly requesting that his players were to be passed over by players and management from another team who finished below your home grown team.     

I can understand the characterisation of 'ultimatum', but it was never intended that way. Whilst it might have been optimistic, some may say naive, to hope to be able to merge two such disparate groups, I felt that it was a proposition worth investing in and still do.  Time may prove me wrong.

Toward the back end of last season Tim strengthened the squad with some exciting new talent, some that, in time and through a lot of hard work and dedication, might have been knocking on the door of the first team, and as our own Under 18s were not prepared to step into men's football this next season, we took the plunge to bring across a new crop of young footballers who could join them to create a truly exciting setup, albeit one that would have required a lot of diplomacy and effort from all at the club to integrate into a fully functioning unit.

On reflection, we (and I) have fallen short to 'sell this' to our outgoing Reserves and their Management, but there was no coup, far from it. And when I read on this forum that none of the existing players have been reached out to I find that claim disturbing. I have personally had a two hour exchange with one of those exiting, he knows who he is. Our secretary has spoken to another and our new management has made calls, but his calls, to my knowledge, have not been returned.

Beyond direct communications, I posted a press release on Facebook, referenced on this thread, where it was made very clear that our (now) outgoing reserve team players have a home at Tavistock should they WANT to attend pre-season and COMPETE for places (just as they do every season) but, clearly, a better opportunity has come along and they have chosen to stay quiet (or post on here under aliases). In fairness, they are a tight-knit unit and I won't discredit their loyalty to their management, but to suggest that we threw out an entire squad is a total fabrication. I need say nothing more on that as the record is in the public domain.

To be clear regarding facts. The Tavistock Under 18 side were champions of the 'middle' DJM league. Ged's team, along with Saltash Under 18s, totally dominated the top flight of the DJM league and the Parkway Under 18s wanted a new challenge.

There is no doubt that we have a very capable home-grown Under 18 side and I had hoped that my previous post and the press release on Tim's resignation had made it very clear of their intentions for this coming season and our ambitions for the one that follows - bringing as many of those lads through the ranks. But perhaps that is a point we can only prove in time. So be it.

And from the earliest conversations with our new management team, it was estimated that only eight lads would likely be making the move, a number I was comfortable with. I don't mind admitting that there were a number of players in our Reserve side that I very much wanted to stay, in part because of their experience, but also because of their (I guess former) love of the Club. That view was expressed to and welcomed by our new management team, who understood that we sought a union of youth and experience and that they would not and could not be offered a role until we had spoken with Tim to see if he could consider a partnership yet whose own words in that meeting were "you would be a fool not to bring these lads across". That Tim slept on it and decided to resign put all of our eggs in one basket, yet our outgoing squad would have to make up their own minds about whether to give the new management team a chance, or make alternative plans. We now know what those plans are.

I picked up on the comment about the new managers attending a game at Tavi before being offered a role. They did, but didn't make themselves known to us. I wouldn't have known them from Adam when they paid for entry at the gate (which I was on when they visited), they were just taking a look at what we were about prior to our first meeting.

For the past several seasons more than 80% of playing members of BOTH the Firsts and Reserves have NOT been Tavi-based. This is not something I or the Committee rejoice in, far from it, but it is a reflection on the competitiveness of the top-end of both the ECPL and SWPL Premier Leagues.

More than anything else I want to see bright, local talent emerge - we have not had nearly enough come through in recent seasons - yet those non-Tavi lads who are now leaving us for Liskeard know very well that I have never made a distinction between local and non-local lads once they put on the red and black of Tavistock Football Club. Anyone who wants to play for Tavistock Football Club is most welcome, but they must be prepared to do so on merit. And once they do put that shirt on, we ask only that they support not only their teammates, but the Club as a whole. Alas, frequently, that has been overlooked, but we strive to improve inclusiveness and listen to voices of dissent, yet for some it is easier to criticise and stir things up than to work with us toward solutions. This thread, sadly, proves that this tendency is even more common than I had feared.

As a Club over the past few seasons we have always welcomed local players to compete for places. Tim and I spoke this Thursday about our frustrations that there have always been lads whose closest club is Tavistock yet would sooner play for a first team in a neighbouring village side (e.g. Callington, Bere Alston, Lamerton etc.) than play in our Reserves, yet the door has always been open for local lads to compete for a place. Nothing changes for this coming season.

But I will make no excuse for the Club developing a First Team of the very highest calibre within budgetary constraints, to grow our gate and enthuse our supporters and sponsors. With the investment that has been made in our Community Football Club to offer football to 14 youth sides, with a wonderful facility on our doorstep, we work tirelessly to create a First Team that our youngest players should aspire to play for once they graduate from youth football. We cannot put a gun to their heads to step up but we have put in place the pathway to achieve this and I do not see our recent integration of the Parkway Under 18s as blocking this agenda, but helping encourage it, as the management we have brought in recognise their role is to prepare players for football at a higher level, not seek silverware in the ECPL.

And to be clear, this is not an indictment of Tim or Sammo and their approach last season, as they accommodated the First Team's wishes last season when players were coming back from injury and would have gladly promoted players to the Firsts if they were ready. It is just a fact that we have not had either strong enough Reserve team players or local lads who are BOTH WILLING AND ABLE to take this journey. However, looking at the way our younger sides are developing now we are optimistic that playing standards within the town are improving and we will do everything we can to encourage this. We will find, encourage and promote the next Josh Robins or Jack Crago if he's within out midst.

Quite simply, we would not have entertained the integration without support from those in the Community Club and the Under 18s. For too long we have operated with a 'Second' team not a 'Reserve' side. A club within a club, some might say. We had failed to create and clear a pathway for development but are working on that now. It will take time, and some players will find younger, hungrier lads challenging them for representation. But that is football. Anywhere. So either fight for your place or move on.

Finally, there will always be those who will choose to characterise that a whole squad of players has been thrown away, in spite of my posts and a press release stating the opposite and that the door remains wide open. I just wonder how many of those dissenting voices knew their time was up and were not prepared to "compete with a  bunch of 18 year olds" or step down and offer their services and experience to P&D (the thirds) or in any number of other roles within the Club that desperately need filling (helping with youth coaching, committee work, matchday volunteering etc.). But if it means they can save face and get another season of football outside of Tavistock, good luck to them and the Clubs they join. They won't be missed if they take those attitudes with them. In the meantime, we have a Club to build...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Devon29 said:
2 hours ago, Devon29 said:

I'm not convinced this is completely accurate. 

 

The now former Parkway under 18's had every chance to progress through the ranks at Parkway.

9 of the under 18's got a debut in the reserve team through the season and most were asked to play the following week to be told that they were not allowed as someone else from their squad had to get a chance. That is not how football works - if someone comes in and does well they should have been allowed the opportunity to stay in the reserve team and then progress through to the first team. 

3 of the under 18's actually did bypass the reserves and debut for the first team. 1 of which even scoring on his debut. 

Its all water under the bridge now and what has happened has happened. However there was no 'block' from the club. As reserve team manager I often asked for the 18s to come along - I would have happily integrated 4/5 of them fully this season with the view of more to come after another season of under 18s football for the rest.

Let's not forget that the team were the younger age of under 18s and could / should have had another year of youth football challenging to win the league. 

 

The main issue here was the impatience of certain individuals.

That said, I wish Ged, Jeff and all the lads all the best for next season...... except in 2 games ;) 

 

 

 

Any inaccuracy is purely down to my interpretation of conversations with Ged and Jeff, so no offence meant toward you and your colleagues if I have misconstrued something or if my comment came across as a slight. It wasn't. I am certainly not putting my head about the parapet to make enemies, only to address a thorny issue at our Club before others make decisions or form concrete opinions whilst lacking some fundamental facts. My comment perhaps shows that I am prone to the same errors in judgement, albeit without any malice / agenda intended.

As my own post (and those that preempt and follow it) prove, there can be a fine line between fact and opinion so thank you for the clarification. I appreciate that you have responded with facts and have not sought to stir up any more ill-feeling and I will take your comments on board.

Picking up on your closing point, there may well have been impatience last season at Parkway and I hope to channel that positively. Hunger to develop has perhaps been less forthcoming in Tavistock than elsewhere, or rather those of us who have a role to support it must now work even harder to make it happen. We will do our best with the available resources and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

There is of course some debate within our own ranks whether our Under 18s should take this opportunity to challenge for the DJM title or, individually, move to men's football when they are ready (which could, in theory, develop an individual's progress at the expense of a team's), but that situation will be managed in our new management forums / chat group as the season unfolds and we strive for the most pragmatic outcome possible under the circumstances. Certainly, most Clubs out there who seek to run a competitive SWPL side have acknowledged the challenges of implementing player development through youth and feeder leagues, alongside a seamless management philosophy on the back of a volunteer workforce. We are no different and we will look to other Clubs who have had more success than us in achieving this. I often get told it is impossible to assemble a collective of LIKE-MINDED managers and squads at this level of football but I have some good people around me who welcome the challenge.

Clearly, you have done a very good job with Parkway Reserves yourself so (apart from two games this season), we wish you all the best too! :) 

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To be clear regarding facts. The Tavistock Under 18 side were champions of the 'middle' DJM league. Ged's team, along with Saltash Under 18s, totally dominated the top flight of the DJM league and the Parkway Under 18s wanted a new challenge.

As far as I understand it there is no lower, middle or upper divisions in the DJM.  Basically you stay in the same division in your age group right the way through from the youngest age group, nothing to do with lower, middle or upper.. 

I have never seen someone write so much baffling information to try and justify their decision.  As I said in my original posting it is as clear as day that the ECPL manager was put in an untenable position.  A club is a club.  A shining example is Torpoint Athletic who for years have had a seem less transition from Duchy, ECPL up to the SWPL. And it starts from their DJM teams right the way through to the top age group. And they are a better club for it.    

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1 hour ago, ECPL said:

To be clear regarding facts. The Tavistock Under 18 side were champions of the 'middle' DJM league. Ged's team, along with Saltash Under 18s, totally dominated the top flight of the DJM league and the Parkway Under 18s wanted a new challenge.

As far as I understand it there is no lower, middle or upper divisions in the DJM.  Basically you stay in the same division in your age group right the way through from the youngest age group, nothing to do with lower, middle or upper.. 

I have never seen someone write so much baffling information to try and justify their decision.  As I said in my original posting it is as clear as day that the ECPL manager was put in an untenable position.  A club is a club.  A shining example is Torpoint Athletic who for years have had a seem less transition from Duchy, ECPL up to the SWPL. And it starts from their DJM teams right the way through to the top age group. And they are a better club for it.    

No need to be baffled, just follow the facts, I have been very open about them. Our opinions, though, I accept may never align. But football is all about opinions and there is only so much I can do to challenge those.

But what I will do is counter deliberate lies with facts, even if those facts do reveal shortcomings or flawed thinking on my part. I am prone to misjudgements and don't always handle situations perfectly, this one being no exception, but to be accused of lying is beyond the pale.

This thread began accusing my club of immoral behaviour for throwing out an entire team and management. But we now know that didn't happen, however some choose to frame it.

So all I have left to say is that those who continue to assert that an entire team were giving their marching orders and that no attempt was made to encourage managers and players to stay, or that we had an axe to grind with Parkway, or that we invited the new management to watch us play, or that we offered them a job before speaking with Tim, the list goes on... are now just p***ing in the wind.

Finally, regarding lower, middle and upper divisions within the DJM, please read the rules (I have highlighted sections below that may help explain things) : http://www.djmleague.org.uk/league-rules/

DETERMINING CHAMPIONSHIP

  1. (A) In Competitions where points are awarded, Team rankings within the Competition will be decided by points with three points to be awarded for a win and one point for a drawn match. The Teams gaining the highest number of points in their respective divisions at the conclusion shall be adjudged the winners.  Matches must not be played for double points. In the event of two or more Teams being equal on points Team rankings may be determined by deciding match(es) played under conditions determined by the Management Committee, or the position shared.

(i.) (DJM) In the event of two or more teams being equal on points, team rankings will be decided in the following way:

(a.) the points gained in matches between the teams when they played each other (e.g. win=3 points; draw=1 point; lose=0points) will count for the final positions:

(b.) the team with the higher number of points from this will be placed higher in the league.

(ii) (DJM)should this not be conclusive deciding match(es) will be played. Knockout Cup Competition Rules will apply.

(B) Automatic promotion and relegation shall be applied for the first 3 and last 3 teams in each Division except as provided for hereunder, subject to the provisions of Rule 1(b).

(i).(DJM) The composition of the league shall be decided as per rule 12 and when necessary Rule 1B.except that under 11 division shall be selected by The Membership Sub-Committee using a ‘percentage grading table’ formulae on matches played. Their decision shall be final and presented to the July management committee meeting each year as the composition of each division for the following season. Should one or more teams withdraw from any Division after the the fixtures have commenced an equal number of teams to those withdrawing in that Division shall not be automatically relegated.

(ii) Vacancies occurring after the conclusion of the Playing Season may be filled in any of the following ways:

(a) retention of otherwise relegated Team(s);

(b) additional promotion of the next ranked Team(s) from the division below; or

(c) election

(d) (DJM) Vacancies in all age groups and divisions shall be filled in the following order: [1] at the AGM; [2] by the Management Committee if after the AGM; [3] or as otherwise agreed. Subject to Rule 12B.

(iii) The last [ ] Teams in the lowest division shall retire, but be eligible for re-election except as below, and be subject to the conditions of paragraph (B)(i) above.

(iv) Should either or both of the leading Teams in any of the divisions have a Team in the next higher division, promotion shall fall, at the discretion of the General Meeting, to the next highest Team or Teams in the division concerned.

(v) Should either or both of the relegated Teams in any of the divisions have a Team in the next lower division, relegation shall fall, at the discretion of the General Meeting, to the next lowest Team or Teams in the division concerned.

(C) In the event of a Team not completing 75% of its fixtures for the Playing Season all points obtained by or recorded against such defaulting Team shall be expunged from the Competition table.

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My goodness me.  You have certainly tried hard to extricate yourself from answering the question.  I think people reading all this must be baffled.  As I said in my original posting it is as clear as day that the ECPL manager was put in an untenable position.  To tell a manager that he must tale on 8 players from Plymouth along with the management staff and not to realize he would be offended is at best naive.  At worst cynical.  I hope it works out ok but to tarnish the good name of Tavistock FC was perhaps not a good idea.      If the intention was to push the club forward and enter the Western League then I am afraid staying in the SWPL is not being progressive.

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1 hour ago, ECPL said:

My goodness me.  You have certainly tried hard to extricate yourself from answering the question.  I think people reading all this must be baffled.  As I said in my original posting it is as clear as day that the ECPL manager was put in an untenable position.  To tell a manager that he must tale on 8 players from Plymouth along with the management staff and not to realize he would be offended is at best naive.  At worst cynical.  I hope it works out ok but to tarnish the good name of Tavistock FC was perhaps not a good idea.      If the intention was to push the club forward and enter the Western League then I am afraid staying in the SWPL is not being progressive.

You didn't ask a question. All you have done is attack my club. And show your ignorance of youth football. So I hope that link proves helpful?

In terms of the untenable position, I maintain we asked, you insist we told. Four people sat in the room during that conversation. And you were not one of them yet you feel free to form your own uninformed interpretation. Again, that concession to our contrasting perspectives was covered in my last post.

As I have acknowledged multiple times I would have liked to have handled things better and arrived at a different outcome. I very much regret losing some good people in the process, but all I can do now is learn from that experience. And I will.

So I AM comfortable with sitting somewhere between naive and cynical; is there anyone who doesn't find themself lodged somewhere on that spectrum? Turns out I will have plenty of good company... so odd that you should even cite it 😂

And, for the record, if being progressive is accepting an unsustainable promotion at the expense of the club's future then I shall happily languish at the top end of the SWPL until the Club is fully-prepared to step up. Too many good people at good clubs have overstretched before and paid the price for their ambition. You've been around football longer than I, so must recognise that as a recurring theme? If we are fortunate enough to be in the position to take it, WHEN we can afford it, then we will. 

So I will sign off now. In the meantime you can crack on with being baffled and getting the final word on your forum, and I will get back to developing our Club 😊

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I think this subject is done to death now surely. If players are not happy at a club, or wish to try pastures new, they will leave. There are always individuals at a club who will take center stage, those who will go off and seek more money, and those who will remain loyal to ''their club''. What ever the whys and wherefores at Tavistock FC, I wish them well for the future, both for the players and the footballing enthusiasts of Tavistock. 

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Funny that was not what was told to me by someone who was at the meeting.  You can bluff and bluster all you like but I am afraid it does not wash.  I too will sign off, not now baffled but clear in my own mind what happened.  So it is good luck to Tavistock and I hope it does not blow up in your face.      

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At the end of the day players and managers move clubs for whatever reason.

I am sure that everyone wants the best for their team and sometimes it is at another clubs expense.

It will all be forgotten when the new season starts. Hopefully all of the original players at the club will get a game somewhere.

All the best for the new season

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